Five Fingers going to Hell

I don't see any reason for

I don't see any reason for VFFs. They don't a give a BF runner the advantage that shoes give in cold-wet Winter and, they're not as good as huaraches for protection from heat. HOWEVER, they are the only minimalist shoe designed by BF runners.

You must be talking about the Bikilas, right? The VFF Flows were designed for cold, wet weather, since they have a neoprene liner in them.

The range of motion they provide is far better than that of any minimalist shoe from other companies. Once someone makes a toebox version of the VFF Sprint - and I mean copies *everything* except the toe-pockets, that will be the definitive minimalist shoe. Barefoot runners could use it in cold-wet Winter. Shod runners could use it the same as they curently use the VFF. AWs would be out of luck but I'm fine with that.

Other than huaraches, meaning VFFs second to huaraches, I agree with everything you say here.
 
Barefoot TJ wrote:Nyah

Barefoot TJ said:
Nyah said:
I don't see any reason for VFFs. They don't a give a BF runner the advantage that shoes give in cold-wet Winter and, they're not as good as huaraches for protection from heat. HOWEVER, they are the only minimalist shoe designed by BF runners.
You must be talking about the Bikilas, right? The VFF Flows were designed for cold, wet weather, since they have a neoprene liner in them.
Actually, no, I was referring to any toe-shoe, Flows included. Even waterproof, slightly insulated material such as soft neoprene is no guarantee that separated toes won't become numb. I've seen posts on BFT's forum from different people citing that it happened. When water gets on anything warmer than itself, it draws heat away. Toe-shoes are effectively heat-sinks, radiating heat away much faster than it happens with a toebox. Add the inability to wear socks of any substantiality and the result shows that toe-shoes are a bad choice for cold-wet Winter.
Barefoot TJ said:
Nyah said:
The range of motion they provide is far better than that of any minimalist shoe from other companies. Once someone makes a toebox version of the VFF Sprint - and I mean copies *everything* except the toe-pockets, that will be the definitive minimalist shoe. Barefoot runners could use it in cold-wet Winter. Shod runners could use it the same as they curently use the VFF. AWs would be out of luck but I'm fine with that.
Other than huaraches, meaning VFFs second to huaraches, I agree with everything you say here.
Ah but if you consider that huaraches are sandals as opposed to shoes, you might fully agree with what I said there.
 
I don't see any reason for

I don't see any reason for VFFs. They don't a give a BF runner the advantage that shoes give in cold-wet Winter and, they're not as good as huaraches for protection from heat. HOWEVER, they are the only minimalist shoe designed by BF runners.


Again, I was referring to your saying that the VFFs were designed by barefoot runners, when it was the Bikila (and the Trek) that was designed by barefoot runners, not the other flavors. The Flows were designed for cold and wet conditions, not running, and I never said they were perfect or even the best. That's an individual thing, and some folks rave about them for cold, wet whether running. I happen to agree with you that the toesies will be kept warmer when they are kept together to generate and store body heat and all that.


It doesn't matter if the footwear on your feet is a sandal, flip-flop, aqua sock, VFF, or full-on boat anchors. They're all shoes.
 
 I have to admit, I LOVE my

I have to admit, I LOVE my Vibrams.. I own three pairs.. KSO Trek's, Bikila's, and just bought a set of Flow's for those cold winter days in Utah.. I'm actually trying to adjust to the "tightness" of the Flow's.. that surprised me. Since I travel with my job I typically take two pairs along (I put in about 15 miles a day running) this week the Flow's went along since I was in Boston the early part of the week, and it was wet and nasty, and the Bikila's since they are my preferred distance runner right now. I ran Central Park today in my Bikila's, and had lot's of on lookers which I love. I've run in several other minimalist shoes, the VFF's have my vote right now.. Plan to test a pair of the Altra Lone Peaks from http://altrarunning.com as soon as they ship since I'm looking for a trail minimalist shoe for my mountain ultra.



Larry
 
Barefoot TJ wrote:Nyah

Barefoot TJ said:
Nyah said:
I don't see any reason for VFFs. They don't a give a BF runner the advantage that shoes give in cold-wet Winter and, they're not as good as huaraches for protection from heat. HOWEVER, they are the only minimalist shoe designed by BF runners.

Again, I was referring to your saying that the VFFs were designed by barefoot runners, when it was the Bikila (and the Trek) that was designed by barefoot runners, not the other flavors. The Flows were designed for cold and wet conditions, not running, and I never said they were perfect or even the best. That's an individual thing, and some folks rave about them for cold, wet whether running. I happen to agree with you that the toesies will be kept warmer when they are kept together to generate and store body heat and all that.
I can think of a prominent BF runner who apparently did contribute important input on the Sprint and, these ideas were employed later as well on the KSO, Trek and Flow. One clue is these shoes' similarities with how the harness system of huaraches works. Think about who it was that first brought us thin huaraches, who was also one of the people running in VFFs back before the Sprint model was introduced. The VFF owners who don't have toe-related issues with VFFs seem to like the mobility-specific functionality of these models a lot (which is why so many go and try to run 10 miles in them right off the bat, way before they're ready for it). The other minimalist shoe companies fail to notice how these features work, due to not having any BF runners testing their footwear and comparing it to VFFs and BF. Well TP does appear to have used it on their newest sandal - but that model doesn't accommodate socks either (arrg - more frustration for me).
 
Boy, you are good at that

Boy, you are good at that nesting quote feature.

Now is that runner or runners? (Just messing with ya. ;-) )
 
The new breed of minimalist

The new breed of minimalist shoes about to hit the market employ a wide toe box, thin, flexible sole, and for the most part, a zero-dropped heel. They are essentially VFFs without separated toes. After tons of testing, some of these shoes will make VFFs obsolete (except for the AW factor, of course).

There will be at least two (and probably four) new options from different manufacturers that are not on the market today but will be before spring. VFF wearers will love them. It's funny- I've been running with my crew; they all wear VFFs. I'm wearing my non-toe separated shoes. I don't remember the last time I felt like the most normal runner in a group...
 
Last Place Jason wrote:The

Last Place Jason said:
The new breed of minimalist shoes about to hit the market employ a wide toe box, thin, flexible sole, and for the most part, a zero-dropped heel. They are essentially VFFs without separated toes. After tons of testing, some of these shoes will make VFFs obsolete (except for the AW factor, of course).

There will be at least two (and probably four) new options from different manufacturers that are not on the market today but will be before spring. VFF wearers will love them. It's funny- I've been running with my crew; they all wear VFFs. I'm wearing my non-toe separated shoes. I don't remember the last time I felt like the most normal runner in a group...
Jason,
I'm sorry but, I have not seen ANY shoe annoucements which show me anything that's even remotely as good as huaraches or the VFF Sprint/KSO (I'm using "shoe" as a differentiation from "sandal" - that new TP sandal which was announced the same time as the Ulra, its designer seems to know what's good). Look at those new shoes from Merrell for instance. It's practically ridiculous to call those 'minimalist'. Sure, they're zero-drop but they're also built up around the edges with foam - an addition which has consequences that are similar to arch-support. Plus they've got "toe-spring", which is stupid for a minimalist shoe because it's not needed and can easily make it feel un-BF-like. I hope no one is expecting those shoes to offer even a modicum of the mobility that huaraches and the VFF Sprint offer. You wouldn't expect a boot maker to know what a BF runner would want to wear in cold-wet Winter, would you? Only if they have a VFF Sprint wearer making final decisions on the shoe design, right? Well, I can see that Merrell didn't do that. The Altra Atom has some features which put it above the other new guys, but it still fails to recognise the inherent design which makes huaraches and VFF Sprint/KSO so special. I sure hope those shoes you're telling me about haven't been announced or leaked yet, because nothing I've seen looks right and I've been searching since this time last year (started 100-percent BF in Sep 09).
 
Nyah wrote:Jason, I'm sorry

Nyah said:
Jason, I'm sorry but, I have not seen ANY shoe annoucements which show me anything that's even remotely as good as huaraches or the VFF Sprint/KSO (I'm using "shoe" as a differentiation from "sandal" - that new TP sandal which was announced the same time as the Ulra, its designer seems to know what's good). Look at those new shoes from Merrell for instance. It's practically ridiculous to call those 'minimalist'.

I'm with Nyah; I haven't seen anything that's tickled my fancy, and the shoe companies seem to have a different definition of "minimalist" than I do. I've yet to find something that's worked for me as well as VFF. That said, I'd be willing to try something new, and I'd definitely switch if it worked better! If there was a VFF without the toe pockets I'd buy it for winter. My toes get so gosh darn cold.
 
Wow when I first started

Wow when I first started reading this thread I thought I was going to dare to dsagree with Jason for the first time ever. However I think I get his point - Vibram in so far as relates to the VFFs' are not concentrating on a core bunch of products - improving and tweaking , production values , price points etc - they just seem intent on bringing out newer models to grab attention and perhaps a differnt piece of the footwear market - note I didnt even say minimalist because right now I think there stratergy is simply dollars and cents and that means models like the JAYA.

I love my KSO's they work for me perfectly when I run in new urban places in the dark - or if I just want to run and not worry to much about what is under foot and focus on speed. My brown leather Treks, well lets say after my kids and wife I would probably go after them in a fire!! I use them as a casual shoe and I still havent found a shoe I find as comfortable - I tried all the TP's they just dont do it for me .

But Nyah I would defer to Jason on those things that are coming down the pipe - I know have seen him wear some ultra secret prototypes
wink.png
at the NYC barefoot run. Listen choice is a very very good thing I plan to do a lot more trail running in the near future so I am keen to see what Inov8 are going to come out with lets see if they can make me part with my money rather than a another pair of Treks. Also as you can see just from this thread what is right for some is not right for others. I was so excited for the bikilas for MONTHS - I would look at photos read reviews and stlk websites for clues as to the launch date I literally ran int Citysports the day they had them in - I put them on and was immediately uuummmmm so disappointed they felt way to "constructed" anyway others absolutely love them - good for you!!

I think they, Vibram, may, if they see the bottom line dissapear, step up their game again and refocus on their core consumer base the barefoot , minimalist lifestyle consumer( which is growing everyday) and learn to listen to them more.

But luckily I always have my favourite pair of"shoes " with me wherever I go and I wish I could get them in a slightly less deformed , less hairy , less bunioned model - but hey they have lasted me 38 yrs I thik I will keep em,!!
 
That's why I think it's so

That's why I think it's so important to have mulitple flavors of what is considered minimal, since what is minimal to one person, may not be minimal to another. We talk a lot about how some like this shoe a lot, but others don't. The more offerings we have presented to the minimalist running shoe market, the better for everyone. It's not a one shoe fits all.
 
Ha, funny, Harrino.  You and

Ha, funny, Harrino. You and I posted at the same time and basically said the same thing.

I think that's funny that you would go in after your Treks in a fire.
 
I think in my mind VFF's will

I think in my mind VFF's will alway have a certain "cool" factor to them. However, when it comes to spending money on running shoes, I'm much more of a minimalist.
 
harrino wrote:Also as you

harrino said:
Also as you can see just from this thread what is right for some is not right for others. I was so excited for the bikilas for MONTHS - I would look at photos read reviews and stlk websites for clues as to the launch date I literally ran int Citysports the day they had them in - I put them on and was immediately uuummmmm so disappointed they felt way to "constructed" anyway others absolutely love them - good for you!!
Hey now, I didn't include the Bikila in my list of VFFs that people seem to generally like. TJ was the one who brought up the Bikila, and it wasn't even to express an opinion of them. The unfavorable impressions of the Bikila by users of earlier VFF models are precisely why I left it off my list.
harrino said:
But luckily I always have my favourite pair of"shoes " with me wherever I go and I wish I could get them in a slightly less deformed , less hairy , less bunioned model - but hey they have lasted me 38 yrs I thik I will keep em,!!
Yes, 100-percent-BF is my primary mode as well. But I know enough to not try pushing the limits of survival in cold-wet Winter. I have to contend with snow. For the Winters I experience, I want something that protects the bottom of my sock while still allowing my foot the mobility it needs.
 
In all fairness to LPJ and

In all fairness to LPJ and his original point also to Nyah - I have extremely short and wide feet - due to bunios so I only ever felt truly comfortable in NB running shoes an rarely could I find any that were avaialble in my size and the most extreme widths appart from the 992' and 993s which are like wearing oil tankers on your feet . So VFFs for me which are plenty wide enough for me - in the toe area are a godsend. I wonder if the wide toe boxes that are being mentioned on some of these new models will actually be wide enough for me
 
i think it's hilarious that

i think it's hilarious that just a few years ago, if not less, people were saying vibram needed to broaden their stroke to pull in the average consumer or they would falter and disappear. the minimal market was too small to just have shoes that catered to them. now here we sit and say they need to stop finding ways to market to the masses because they are supposed to be a minimal runners company. oh we fickle people of the consumer base.

i still think they are staying minimal but just offering a lot more options to keep the revenue coming in. this company is doubling it's profits every year and i don't see it slowing down any time soon. they'll be around for a while and they'll drop new stuff each year just like they have been. it's very easy for them to release the four or five new models they have set for next year and then the year after that reattack the minimalist crowd with stuff for them while ignoring the masses. they are still the front runner and after seeing Mr Post on fox news the other day they have every intention on staying there.
 
Last Place Jason wrote:The

Last Place Jason said:
The new breed of minimalist shoes about to hit the market employ a wide toe box, thin, flexible sole, and for the most part, a zero-dropped heel. They are essentially VFFs without separated toes. After tons of testing, some of these shoes will make VFFs obsolete (except for the AW factor, of course).



Sounds promising and you definitely have me curious. Care to shed some light on your inside information? I understand if you can't though. When are they supposed to hit the market?
 
I bought a $25 off $50

I bought a $25 off $50 purchase daily deal kinda thing from a local shoe store this morning and was all excited and looking forward to a new pair of VFFs. The only problem is that I don't run in them anymore and I wear the Treks and KSOs as work shoes.



I was offered a pair of the Terra Plana Evos a short while ago and after reading Jason's review on them, I was all excited to test them out. I'm sorry to say that I don't share the same shoe fondness as Jason since I thought they were horribly uncomfortable

I doubt I will buy any of the closed toe minimal shoes coming out soon since I am quite comfortable with Ted's Luna Sandals. I don't see why people need shoes designed specifically for trails either since the sandals work just fine for that as well. Not sure if there will ever be a minimal "shoe" that can top these and if anything, I'd like to see more companys move in this direction.
 
A fw qualifiers:1) All

A fw qualifiers:

1) All minimalist shoes, by design, will work better for some people and not so much for others. EVOs are a good example... I really like the EVO IIs, other hate them. Some people love Bikilas, I hate them. Since the shoes are built closer to the shape of a real human foot, some will be closer to the shape of my foot than others.

2) I distinguish between true minimalist shoes (like VFFs and EVOs) and the minimalist posers (regular foot coffins with less padding). The NB Minimus line (at least the trails), the new Merrells, Inov-8's BareGrip, and possibly GoLite's Tara Lite are all what I would consider true minimalist shoes. These are the shoes that will give Vibram a serious run for their money. It's an entirely new breed of shoes based on the design features of VFFs, just without the toe pockets.

3) Function is my primary consideration when analyzing any shoe. Ultimately, I need to find shoes that will let me run 100s without screwing with my form. That's my standard any shoe has to pass. I don't get excited about a shoe that can't pass that test. I've been putting some serious miles on some of the new shoes... they definitely pass the test.

4) I agree with Shacky- Ted's Lunas are VERY tough to beat. I doubt they will be effective in snow and ice-covered trails, though. That's a major reason i test so many... I'm trying to find the best tools for the job. The Lunas are my favorite road shoe (by far), and very close to my favorite trail shoe.

Adam- I can't give any details yet... as soon as i get the green light, I'll post. :)

Smelph- unfortunately, no. None will be released before winter. I tried to convince a few of them it would be advantageous, but none were market-ready.
 

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