Five Fingers going to Hell

[sloutre]

Last Place Jason

Ultimately, I need to find shoes that will let me run 100s without screwing with my form.

Being new to barefoot running, any shoe will screw up my form. I think and hope that with more experience the proper form is harder to corrupt. So works as a minimal shoe for an experienced barefoot runner may be too build up for a novice.

I have no hope of finding confortable shoes for this winter, now am looking at the socks offerings. Wool is supposed to stay warm even when wet but is it comfortable to wear huaraches with wet wool socks? And will the sock+huarache combination be minimal enough, that is the question.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Sloutre, I've been at this

Sloutre, I've been at this for awhile and any shoe messes with my form. Huaraches are close to perfect. Everything else causes some degree of problems.

As far as socks and huaraches, I had some success with Injinji "Outdoors" made with NuWool.

 

[ajb422]

 I have what is possibly a

I have what is possibly a very silly question but I haven't been able to find a real answer anywhere yet.

What is the point of having a five fingered shoe? It seems like if you are going to keep your toes away from each other there should be some advantage gained from it, but then again my toes get separation anxiety if I even try on a pair of VFFs.

 

[Jocelyn]

Last Place Jason

Smelph- unfortunately, no. None will be released before winter. I tried to convince a few of them it would be advantageous, but none were market-ready.

That is exciting to hear! Well, not the waiting bit, but that good things are on the horizon. Can't wait to check them out.

 

[Nyah]

Last Place Jason wrote:I

I distinguish between true minimalist shoes (like VFFs and EVOs) and the minimalist posers (regular foot coffins with less padding). The NB Minimus line (at least the trails), the new Merrells, Inov-8's BareGrip, and possibly GoLite's Tara Lite are all what I would consider true minimalist shoes. These are the shoes that will give Vibram a serious run for their money. It's an entirely new breed of shoes based on the design features of VFFs, just without the toe pockets.

But those aren't like the popular VFFs which became the quinessential minimalist shoes (Sprint, KSO and Trek). These shoes by Merrell, NB, Inov8 and Golite have foam and extra rubber around the sides, toe-spring and, a lacing system brought over from conventional shoes. The NB so-called "Minimus" even has a heel-lift. The quintessential VFFs show us how a comfortable shoe can move well with the foot, yet these conventional shoe companies trying to get in on minimalist running are still clueless. I predict Osma-like fiascoes with these overbuilt, pre-flexed, disconcerting shoes.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Nyah wrote:But those aren't

But those aren't like the popular VFFs which became the quinessential minimalist shoes (Sprint, KSO and Trek). These shoes by Merrell, NB, Inov8 and Golite have foam and extra rubber around the sides, toe-spring and, a lacing system brought over from conventional shoes. The NB so-called "Minimus" even has a heel-lift. The quintessential VFFs show us how a comfortable shoe can move well with the foot, yet these conventional shoe companies trying to get in on minimalist running are still clueless. I predict Osma-like fiascoes with these overbuilt, pre-flexed, disconcerting shoes.

At least two of them are much more VFF-like than they appear in regards to fit, function, and ground feel. The heel lift and excessive toe spring is inexcusable... I've frequently and loudly complained to NB's wear test team, design team, and marketing people. Merrell and New Balance are definitely going in the right direction, to the point where their products will be a better option than VFFs for some tasks. The jury's still out on GoLite and Inov-8, but I like what I've gotten from conversations with their people.

I think the turning point came when a few of these companies started throwing out their previous ideas of what a minimalist shoe should be. Most companies started with their regular foot coffins, then added minimalist "features". The new approach is to seek out and find experts that actually understand barefoot running, then create a product from the ground up.

This season, we'll see some companies that REALLY got it right, others that got some of it right, and others that are still searching. The key -some REALLY got it right. Furthermore, the companies that got some of it right are willing to listen.

All this shoe talk has me longing for the warmth of spring when I don't have to worry about damn shoes.

 

[Barefoot Burt]

+1000Last Place Jason

+1000

Sloutre, I've been at this for awhile and any shoe messes with my form. Huaraches are close to perfect. Everything else causes some degree of problems.

 

[Nyah]

Last Place Jason

Merrell and New Balance are definitely going in the right direction, to the point where their products will be a better option than VFFs for some tasks.

I disagree with that. Heel-lift, toe-spring, overbuilt construction, and conventional lacing system are all signs of having not gotten the jist of the quintessential VFFs (Sprint, KSO and Trek). Neither Merrell, New Balance, Inov8 nor GoLite appear to have gotten it. When these shoes come out, I think wearers of the quintessential VFFs will agree with me.

This season, we'll see some companies that REALLY got it right...
The key -some REALLY got it right.

I'll believe it when I see it. So far, I am not impressed.

 

[Jimmy Hart]

yes but Nyah you're hard to

yes but Nyah you're hard to please If I'm reading it correctly it sounds like Jason is using his "cup half full" attitude towards the immense strides shoe companies are making in the right direction. It will take time for these companies to get it and get it right, but then again, what's right? look at the minimal definition threads on here. there are a ton of opinions and most of them are far from being the same. it took a long time for shoes to get as big and thick as they did...it will take time for them to come back down.

the problem now is that running has boomed in the time of thick running shoes and was considered and outsider freak show in the days of thinner shoes. people today know and like the thicker shoes so the companies cannot and will not abandon that for the sake of the few based on a couple of random studies. as time goes on and the studies become more the shoes will follow until we get something like the spray on shoes from Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs....now that's what I'm waiting for!

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Well said, Jimmy!

Well said, Jimmy!

 

[betsig250]

 This season, we'll see some

This season, we'll see some companies that REALLY got it right... The key -some REALLY got it right.[/quote] I'll believe it when I see it. So far, I am not impressed.[/quote]



Well I really hope next spring you will be impressed.

 

[Jimmy Hart]

i had a great time at the

i had a great time at the vibram booth this week at the running event and i have now had all their new models in my hands and on my feet. the new shoes fall right in line with all the other vffs. they are not thicker, no extra stability, in some cases lighter, and more flexible. the kamodo is going to make cross fit and fitness enthusiasts pretty happy with its ability to stay solid on the foot during lateral movement drills. i was impressed with it. it's not specifically a running shoe but could be used with a bikila like feel. the lace up bikila feels really good over the top of the foot iwth the same footbed as the original. the most interesting model is the jaya. it's super light and flexible and designed for things like yoga but i see a lot of ladies and probably ment (even though it's a womans shoe) using these for running.



going to hell? not quite. Focused 100% on minimal runner? not quite but talking to Tony Post I heard a pretty interesting sentence come from his mouth when I said this "it seems a lot of your original consumers, the barefoot/minimal runners, are thinking you are leaving them behind to focus on a different market. Sort of saying you don't care that they got you here because you have already cornered the market" his answer "the barefoot runner is our number one focus given the major response we have gotten from them. Our newer models are answers to public demand for models that match better with the things the five fingers are being used for the most but we know we were the first to the party and cornered the market because of runners. We will in the near future remind everyone of that as we protect our market share"

That was slightly paraphrased as I did not record our short conversation. I only caught his attention because I knew as much about his products as the people they had there working the booth and they seemed a little surprised/confused about it. in fact the first lady I spoke with stopped me after a few minutes of talking and said "who are you? like who are you with or who have you talked to to get the info you have" my response "i'm the dude" Abide that was for you

 

[Barefoot TJ]

And advertising?

And advertising?

 

[Jimmy Hart]

That's a different topic TJ

That's a different topic TJ but we are under review with them at the moment. I did all I could to plug us but they have outsourced that decision so aside from their recommendations to the company on what they think would be good they don't have a lot of input.

 

[Matt]

Jimmy Hart wrote:...."the

...."the barefoot runner is our number one focus given the major response we have gotten from them......

Am I missing something here? I thought barefoot runners didn't run in shoes. The problem with barefoot running is that there is no "market" there. Not in terms of shoes.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

So if I run two or three

So if I run two or three times this winter at the coldest part of the year in shoes, that erases all my hard barefoot running work before then? Really? I'm no longer a barefoot runner? Neither is Ted or Jason or Ken Bob for that 5 mile run in Frees (or however long it was)?

We forget that barefoot runners use footwear as tools (FAT) from time-to-time, depending on the conditions.

 

[Jimmy Hart]

it's true Matt...a barefoot

it's true Matt...a barefoot runner can use shoes from time to time and it's not a bad thing. i know i read somewhere on the internet that your feet fall off if you do but i've tried it and it's not true

 

[Matt]

I'm not disagreeing with

I'm not disagreeing with using shoes from time to time. I, personally, don't have mind over matter powers when it comes to cold, so I'll most likely wear shoes this winter (even for running).

But I don't think that's what Vibrams are really selling here. And I have nothing against people who want to run in shoes.

But with all that said, there are still people who prefer running barefoot. There is still no shoe that is really "barefoot".

And I'm not even saying that I won't someday become a shod runner again. I'm not convinced that I'm meant to be a barefoot runner. However, I'm convinced that some people are barefoot runners, and they certainly aren't the people that Vibram wants to market to.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Interesting comments from

Interesting comments from Tony, Jimmy. I wonder what Vibram is planning to remind us as they protect their market share. Maybe they'll get radical- a shoe without articulated toes.

This is especially puzzling considering their stake in the very shoes that can challenge their market share- the new Minimus Trails and Merrells. Is it better to sell your own product or allow others to sell a product made with your materials? Win-win, I guess.

Kind of going along with Matt's comments- I've spent the last three months testing a variety of the new minimalist shoes. I am REALLY jonesing to get back to more barefoot running. There are some good tools out there, but they're no subsititue for your feet on the ground.

 

[Nyah]

Vibram probably doesn't see

Vibram probably doesn't see the new shoes from NB and Merrell as competitors to the minimalist VFFs. To me they look too stiff to gain any respect from minimalist runners.