Optimal strength training for runners

[Abide]

Yeah lately I rarely go over 5 reps (other than pull ups), keep it to 3 sets and everything is heavy. It seems to work better for me and I am much less sore than doing higher rep schemes. I kind of mimicked a higher frequency lower rep type plan but with a little less frequency, similar to Dan Johns 40 day program or Pavels power to the people. It's working so I am going to keep riding it for as long as I can.

Most people recommend only deadlifting once a week, so don't feel the need to overdo it. The DL is my money lift, squatting on the other hand is much more taxing and difficult for me.

I'll check out your plan now!

 

[Abide]

I think you should switch squats to Friday. Then you will have things a little more spaced and at least 2 days recovery for your legs. Or if you are running long Sat or Sun switch deads to friday and squat Monday. Otherwise you have a ton of full body compound lifts in one day.

 

[Bare Lee]

I think you should switch squats to Friday. Then you will have things a little more spaced and at least 2 days recovery for your legs. Or if you are running long Sat or Sun switch deads to friday and squat Monday. Otherwise you have a ton of full body compound lifts in one day.

Hmmn, that's an interesting thought. As I mentioned, I've always separated different body areas into different workouts, but I could give it a try. I would be doing squats along with my chest and shoulders stuff on Friday. My current weekly schedule starts by blasting the lower body and then easing up as I approach the end-of-the-week long run:

M: Bottom ST
Tu: Hills/Intervals
W: Middle ST
Th: Tempo Run
F: Top ST
Sa: Long Run
Su: Rest or make-up ST/Run

I'm still not pushing the squats that much. I got up to 175, but my form isn't that good, so I brought it back down to 125 this week to get a better feel for the movement. I'll stay there until it feels smoother. So my squats aren't that taxing, and shouldn't be a problem before a long run. And there's a chance they might help keep the ITBS ogre at bay.

And in any case, on yesterday's tempo run, my legs didn't feel heavy at all after Monday's deadlifts and squats and leg extensions, so I guess my conditioning has improved and I may not have to worry so much about that big leg stuff interfering with my running.

But I do kind of like the way those big lower body exercises work together, and the tight=a$$ed linguist in me likes the clear distinctions--Bottom/Middle/Top--involved in the current 'body zone' layout.

Nonetheless, I like the idea of working the lower body more. I seem to get a lot of benefit from that, so doing something for that area twice a week instead of once is worth trying. I ran 8:38 mm pace on a 6-mile tempo run yesterday, which is a good improvement oover my usual 9-9:15 mm pace, and I think the big lifts are partly responsible. I've also been running consistently and injury-free for about three months now, so that's part of it too.

One other question, when you do the shoulder/military presses, are you doing them sitting or standing? I've always done them standing, but the last few times I tried them sitting and it seems a lot more challenging that way. I wonder if you know of the pros or cons of doing them either way. Sitting I feel like I'm isolating the targeted muscles much more, and can't do as much weight as a consequence.

 

[Abide]

Thread revival and a funny article

http://www.completehumanperformance.com/special-endurance-considerations-for-strength-athletes.html

 

[Bare Lee]

Thread revival and a funny article

http://www.completehumanperformance.com/special-endurance-considerations-for-strength-athletes.html

Thanks, read most of it over lunch and skimmed the linked article "So you want to run? Endurance Training for Strength Athletes". Learned a lot. Also seems to validate most of my approach, if I've understood the author correctly. My main difference is that I don't sweat the details of a Westside-type protocol, nor the scheduling of my types of runs versus types of lifts, as much as the author does, but then, I'm not a high-performance athlete either, so it doesn't really matter if I optimize everything.

 

[Abide]

Yeah I like his concepts and if I cared more I might even try running his program. By I don't and I like the do whatever I feel like plan a little better.

 

[Bare Lee]

Yeah I like his concepts and if I cared more I might even try running his program. By I don't and I like the do whatever I feel like plan a little better.

Yah, I don't know if I'm lazy or if those guys overcomplicate stuff but running and lifting seem pretty simple to me. To the extent that I have a MO, I think it goes something like this:

For running, you can do

1.) aerobic, lactate threshold (tempo), or anaerobic runs (hills or intervals),
2.) flat or hilly, smooth or challenging surfaces,
3.) loops or out-n-backs
4.) long, short, or middle distances,
5.) continuous running or intervals with some kind of break (jogging, walking, stretching, skipping, vomiting),
6.) steady running or running with different paces (strides, progression, fartleks, intervals, etc.).
So,
7.) Mix up run types and find out which ones give you the most benefit and/or enjoyment.
8.) Always run with good posture/form, and don't run if you get so tired your form/posture breaks down or you feel strain.
9.) Don't run hard or long more than every other day.
10.) Don't run hard or long more than four times a week

For lifting, you should start each workout session with

1.) big or basic movements, which you should do with heavy weights, low reps (1-5), and longer breaks, and then do
2.) smaller or trickier movements, which you should do with lighter weights, higher reps (3-10), and shorter breaks.
3.) Given a certain amount of reps, you should do everything to max or close to max, and then pyramid down some or move on to the next exercise.
4.) Do as many sets as you feel like or have energy for, first pyramiding up with warm-up sets if necessary.
5.) Do everything with a stable platform and good balance, and don't do any weight that's so heavy that you can't do the movement with good form/posture.
6.) Do the movements dynamically, with a little push, and not too slowly, but not to the point where you lose control, balance, or good form/posture either.
7.) Divide your workouts into different body areas or sets of muscles, and give each area or set of muscles 48 hours to recover, if possible.
8.) Towards the end of the workout, it's ok to do the lighter exercises at high intensity with little or no break, or to the point of failure, but don't do the heavy exercises at the beginning of the workout this way.
9.) Try to keep your workouts to an hour or less, shifting briskly between exercises.
10.) Don't do heavy lifting more than four times a week.

Finally, for both running & lifting:

1.) If you're running and lifting in the same session, do the lifting first. If you're running and lifting in the same day, do the running first.
2.) Don't worry about matching run type with lift type on the same or consecutive days--both upper body and lower body soreness from lifting will affect your running somewhat. Deal with it.
3.) Warm up appropriately, stretch out and massage as needed.
4.) Do everything barefooted and barehanded if possible.
5.) If it makes you happy to keep track of data (pace, distance, cadence, HR, breath count, elevation gains, splits), or follow strict protocols (MAF, supersets, laddering, Westside DE/ME alternations), or listen to music, and so on, do it. If not, don't. Do whatever enhances the experience, do nothing that takes away from its enjoyment.
6.) There is no number six.
7.) If you start to burnout, or have low energy levels, reduce or rest for however long is necessary.
8.) Forget about goals with numbers and dates; enjoy yourself, be consistent, and trust that the gains will come on their own.
9.) Eat well, stay hydrated.
10.) Rest adequately.

Did I miss something?

 

[Abide]

Nope that's a pretty good list maybe I'd add warmup appropriately.

 

[Bare Lee]

Nope that's a pretty good list maybe I'd add warmup appropriately.

Done (number three, third list of numbers).

 

[mokaman]

I struggle with this...trying to balance strength training with running. The running/biking/swimming is easy and recreational but strength training is work and no fun in general.

I still need to find some kind of strength training I can stick to...the MoveNat stuff appeals to me but not sure if that really would be considered strength training.

 

[Bare Lee]

I struggle with this...trying to balance strength training with running. The running/biking/swimming is easy and recreational but strength training is work and no fun in general.

I still need to find some kind of strength training I can stick to...the MoveNat stuff appeals to me but not sure if that really would be considered strength training.

Yah, weights can be pretty boring sometimes, especially when it's just you in your garage doing the same set of exercises again and again, week after week, but I like the convenience and efficiency of weights, and I like feeling reasonably strong. I also like the feeling of a good pump, almost as much as the runner's high. Even now, I'm already psyched for my lower body workout this afternoon. Just feels good to lift heavy sh!t, just like it feels good to run far or fast.

But the important thing is to find something that keeps you keep coming back for more. If MovNat does that for you, I'd say stick with it. You're lucky to live in a climate where you can do that stuff year-round. I've thought about setting up a mini MovNat playground in my yard. I would especially like to get good at climbing rope. And, unlike weights, some of the other MovNat stuff would be fun to do with my kids (ages 2 & 6).

I agree with your last post in the Mileage Forum. The tempo runs are hard because they require more mental effort, and I'm having trouble motivating for them first thing in the morning, although I love the feeling afterwards. For strength training, I find a similar logic applies. I often find it hard to do stuff that requires a high mental effort. I like weights to feel leisurely and recreational. That's why I stick with what I know, even though I know one or two HIIT sessions per week would probably do me a lot of good. I do a little of that towards the end of my workouts, but only 5-10 minutes usually.

 

[NickW]

I struggle with this...trying to balance strength training with running. The running/biking/swimming is easy and recreational but strength training is work and no fun in general.

I still need to find some kind of strength training I can stick to...the MoveNat stuff appeals to me but not sure if that really would be considered strength training.

I think it is a type of strength training, and if that's what you like then it will help keep you doing it instead of finding excuses to not do the exercise. I myself don't find weights boring. I like small gyms where I am the only one in and I can put on my music and just lift and enjoy the solitude and the work/exercise that I am doing. I also like rope climbs, heavy bags, and speed bags. I hopefully will have enough room at the new house I can set up a decent little workout area which will be my decompress from life space. Maybe my wife will use the area too when she's ready.

 

[mokaman]

I've tried several different strategies for weight training and they all seem to work at least for the beginning strength gains but I lose interest within a 4 - 8 weeks usually then it takes at least 6 months or so before I try again.

I have about a half acre of forest in the back of my property...I've been thinking of setting up a circuit style route thru the tree's for weight training purposes...might be kinda fun.

 

[Bare Lee]

I've tried several different strategies for weight training and they all seem to work at least for the beginning strength gains but I lose interest within a 4 - 8 weeks usually then it takes at least 6 months or so before I try again.

I have about a half acre of forest in the back of my property...I've been thinking of setting up a circuit style route thru the tree's for weight training purposes...might be kinda fun.

Sounds like a blast!

Although, I should say, in weight training's defense, that it may take 6-12 months before it gets fun and comfortable. Maybe try just a few basic exercises like deadlifts and power cleans, just focus on those, and see if at any point you start to dig it. Then maybe expand your repertoire. All the different exercises and principles and protocols can be overwhelming at first. When I was first starting out, I did the typical young man thing and mostly benched a lot. It wasn't until later, when I started training karate, that I started to do deadlifts, power cleans, and squats, and at first I hated it, and could hardly wait to get back to the bench press, dips, and other upper body stuff. I think only when the movement gets comfortable and you start to increase the resistance does it become fun, and even then, there'll be days when you're just not into it (although I usually get into it by the middle or end of the session, when I start to get a pump). Like you say, that almost never happens with running.

Still, there's many ways to skin the cat, if you ain't havin' fun, you won't stick with it. Follow your bliss . . .

 

[flammee]

There's very little optimal in my strength training. Every morning I do ten minutes of midsection training, holding planks and little abs and such. Later on, I do pull ups and push ups one set daily - my goal is to add one repetition to that set once in a month. Thing is, I really don't like push or pull ups, so I have this minimal progression approach to keep myself motivated. Currently I am at two repetitions. If I continue it for two years, I get quite good number of repetitions. I have few times tried to do push or pull ups with more progressive "program", and always I have stopped doing them before too long.. I think lifetime of easy training is better than few weeks of hard training and then rest of the lifetime not training. I have bit more progressive bodyweight squat thing going on though - each time I do them, I do one more than last time. I started from 11 repetitions, last time I did 71 repetitions. I do them couple of times a week.

 

[Bare Lee]

This ties into a point Sid made earlier about incorporating more agility work into our routines:
http://www.outsideonline.com/fitnes...hy-You-Need-to-Be-Doing-Burpees.html?page=all
Here's yet another study abstract highlighting the importance of doing strength-training along with endurance stuff.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23207882

 

[Abide]

I find the choice of squat jumps as the excercise they used to measure interesting. I wonder if they would see similar results with a slower lift?

 

[Bare Lee]

I find the choice of squat jumps as the excercise they used to measure interesting. I wonder if they would see similar results with a slower lift?

I think developing a little explosiveness could be quite helpful, but maybe doing lighter-weight lifts at a faster clip are just as beneficial? When I pyramid down on the deadlifts, I do like to pick up the pace a bit.

But about the only really explosive thing I do are my power cleans. I've been really bad about doing more plyometric stuff. I'm going to try to start doing more of it just before lunch time, for 5-10 minutes. I never feel like doing plyo stuff at the end of a run or st session, and never get around to it on the weekend. Same with mobility stuff. Gotta be done as a break at my office. What would be really good is just to play basketball or soccer once in a while, but I hate having to schedule exercise with others. That's always a sure bet for never doing it, and I'm already overwhelmed with keeping up with my wife and kids' schedules.

New thoughts on my weekly routine:

Run every morning, no matter how short. Then always do the st in the afternoon, four times a week, either M/W/F and once on the weekend, or M/Tu/W/F. If something comes up at the end of the day, as it often does, I'll just do the planned st the next day, which won't interfere with a run, since those are always done in the morning. I used to worry about how certain st zones worked with certain kinds of runs, but I think that's unnecessary.

Only one problem: winter. But it might be kind of cool to go out running at the coldest time of day. Builds character, and is invigorating. That will mean running shod more often, but barefoot running in the winter is kind of a hassle anyway, what with always having to worry about windchill, moisture, and relatively snow-free routes.

If I can run 3-7 miles every morning, with a day off here and there, and then get in one long run on the weekend, I should be able to get up to around 40mpw. Should be possible without risking injury.

For strength training, I found that three times a week wasn't quite enough. I've been regressing slightly in some under-emphasized areas, like my pull-downs and squats. Spreading things out over four workouts allows me to concentrate on the most important exercises yet still get in all the secondary ones that help strengthen the joints and muscles involved in the primary ones.

I've uploaded yet another revised st routine.

 

[DNEchris]

But it might be kind of cool to go out running at the coldest time of day. Builds character, and is invigorating.

You need that?

 

[Abide]

If I can run 3-7 miles every morning, with a day off here and there, and then get in one long run on the weekend, I should be able to get up to around 40mpw. Should be possible without risking injury.

For strength training, I found that three times a week wasn't quite enough. I've been regressing slightly in some under-emphasized areas, like my pull-downs and squats. Spreading things out over four workouts allows me to concentrate on the most important exercises yet still get in all the secondary ones that help strengthen the joints and muscles involved in the primary ones.

I've uploaded yet another revised st routine.

I think that is a good threshold running 30-40 miles a week and lifting 3-4 days a week. I think after this point you would likley need to sacrifice one or the other.