Optimal strength training for runners

I think that is a good threshold running 30-40 miles a week and lifting 3-4 days a week. I think after this point you would likley need to sacrifice one or the other.
Cool, good to hear you confirm the idea. That's been my sense of it lately, 30-40 mpw run, 3-4 days per week st--that's a good range and probably the upper limit on my time and motivation and ability to recover.

I already have a hard time doing a good job on both though. I have yet to put together a solid week of both running and lifting. The last two weeks the weights have suffered a bit as I've pushed the long runs, but I'm going to try the new schedule I mentioned up above, with running mostly in the am,

Sun: track or hills
Mon: 3-4 miles
Tues: 5-7 miles
Wed: 3-4 miles
Thur: 5-7 miles
Fri: 3-4 miles
Sat: 10-15 miles

and weights mostly in the pm,

Sun: Hips, Butt & Legs, or rest and do this workout Tuesday afternoon
Mon: Chest & Biceps
Tues:
Wed: Lats & 'Core'
Thur:
Fri: Delts, Traps, Triceps & Forearm
Sat:

and forgo the run commuting for the time being. These little one-mile run-commutes probably don't help that much. Better to do a proper run everyday and bike commute. Anyway, will give it a try next week. 40 mpw seems possible though. If the running gets to be too much, I'll just cut out one or more of the runs on the st days, and maybe add some miles to the pure running days.

Hopefully this revised plan will stick. I respond best when I have a stable routine. The everyday/higher mileage running thing is all new to me, and it's odd how exciting it is for me now, but I look forward to the day when it's just part of my daily/weekly rhythm. It's tiring thinking about all the possibilities all the time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NickW
I'm going to try the 10k challenge for the next month to switch things up a little. I cant seem to get into the groove with my typical lifting plan right now.

http://www.t-nation.com/workouts/10000-swing-kettlebell-workout

I might do things sligtly different but I always here good things about KB swings and running. So we shall see.
How's the 10K challenge going Abide? I recently got rid of my kettlebell swings (done with a t-bar). I've tried them on and off for a year or so. I just don't feel like I get much benefit. I'd be interested in your opinion (if I haven't already asked).

Here's something that may be of interest that popped into my pop lit email folder this morning: http://www.mensfitness.com/training...ness_Newsletter&utm_campaign=Newsletter102313
 
How's the 10K challenge going Abide? I recently got rid of my kettlebell swings (done with a t-bar). I've tried them on and off for a year or so. I just don't feel like I get much benefit. I'd be interested in your opinion (if I haven't already asked).

Here's something that may be of interest that popped into my pop lit email folder this morning: http://www.mensfitness.com/training...ness_Newsletter&utm_campaign=Newsletter102313

It was going for a week but then I realized it was one of those plans that shouldn't be combined with anything else. My hands were getting pretty beat up too and I had no energy to run. Now I just do 500 swings a day once a week. Similar benefit without the abuse.

It's race season again so I am changing my plan up. I'll post it up when I get it sorted out. I haven't had a chance to look over the mileage threads hows the daily running going?
 
It was going for a week but then I realized it was one of those plans that shouldn't be combined with anything else. My hands were getting pretty beat up too and I had no energy to run. Now I just do 500 swings a day once a week. Similar benefit without the abuse.

It's race season again so I am changing my plan up. I'll post it up when I get it sorted out. I haven't had a chance to look over the mileage threads hows the daily running going?
Running's going really well, although I blew off yesterday's run because I have a minor bug in my throat and don't want it migrating down and lodging in my lungs.

The transition into the 30-40 mpw range has been surprisingly easy and I haven't felt any real strain in my legs, and recovery time after a long run is down to 24-48 hours now. Did a 16-miler last week. I'll keep the weekend long runs in the half-marathon range and may try something longer once a month or so, I think. During the week I'm trying to get in two 6-8-mile runs, and then I do one-mile run-commutes most days. I think those twice-daily short runs really help keep the legs from stiffening up. I don't know if they have any benefit on my overall running fitness though. Not sure if volume per se really counts.

So my running is more or less where I want it, except I'd still like for my aerobic pace to get down into the 8-9mm range more consistently. It's still between 9:30-10:30 mm pace on relatively easy terrain. Tempo pace is about 8:15-8:45 mm. Would be cool to dip below 8mm pace by next year sometime.

Now I'm getting psyched about strength training again. I've been pretty consistent for the last month or two, and getting results. I've been doing more pyramiding, and have cut out a few more exercises in order to focus better on the heavy lifts, as per your suggestion a while ago.

Thinking about taking a creatine supplement. Thoughts? I don't really want to bulk up, but it's cool to be getting strong again at my age, and ST lifts my mood and cognition just as much as running does. If a relatively 'natural' supplement can help me get max benefit from my workouts, I guess there's no harm in it, right? I've been doing the protein bars and/or shakes before workouts, and I think this helps.
 
Thinking about taking a creatine supplement. Thoughts? I don't really want to bulk up, but it's cool to be getting strong again at my age, and ST lifts my mood and cognition just as much as running does. If a relatively 'natural' supplement can help me get max benefit from my workouts, I guess there's no harm in it, right? I've been doing the protein bars and/or shakes before workouts, and I think this helps.

That's good to hear about the running. Its funny that winter time is your lifting season and my running season.

I've taken creatine multiple times, even recently, and I can't really tell if it does help? The only noticeable effect for me was about 10lbs. of weight gain. You could probably expect that too, but if you eant meat regularly you might not notice. I am a vegetarian so I think the impact is larger due to the lack of creatine in my food. I quit because it doesnt make sense to take it while you are trying to cut down weight for running.

I'd give it a try though its cheap and the potential is there. I've also been taking glycine at night and I really like it as well. It helps with sleep and recovery a bit. You get some crazy dreams though, it's pretty cheap too and just another amino acid.
 
That's good to hear about the running. Its funny that winter time is your lifting season and my running season.

I've taken creatine multiple times, even recently, and I can't really tell if it does help? The only noticeable effect for me was about 10lbs. of weight gain. You could probably expect that too, but if you eant meat regularly you might not notice. I am a vegetarian so I think the impact is larger due to the lack of creatine in my food. I quit because it doesnt make sense to take it while you are trying to cut down weight for running.

I'd give it a try though its cheap and the potential is there. I've also been taking glycine at night and I really like it as well. It helps with sleep and recovery a bit. You get some crazy dreams though, it's pretty cheap too and just another amino acid.
Thanks for the feedback. I'll give it a try, see what happens. For the most part, I'm too lazy to get really scientific about my nutrition and the pre-/post-workout timing of it and all that. But I have been trying to get some carb and protein in 30-60 minutes before or after a run or st session, as per Sid's suggestion I think. Usually a banana and a protein bar. I've kind of given up on losing any more weight through diet. It's too tricky if you want to work out every day. I was getting some mild hypoglycemia.

Over the next year or two I'd like to see how far I can go with the weights, knowing that I'm at an age where decline is inevitable. But if the decline starts from a higher point, hopefully it will take longer. More and more studies are showing how strength training can slow down the effects of aging. Mostly I want to get really strong on the dead lifts, maybe 2xBW if possible.

I don't really have a seasonal plan. It's just that I've kind of reached a running goal, one I've been working towards for at least a year, in terms of weekly mileage and max distance for my long run, so maybe I need to take a mental break, effort-wise. And I'm feeling it in my st workouts lately--pretty much a good pump every time--so that's a sign to go with that for a while. No real plan. Just trying to get better at lifting and running without hurting myself. I got a good base now, anything that comes after is bonus.
Now I just do 500 swings a day once a week. Similar benefit without the abuse.
That's pretty hardcore. So I guess you're seeing benefits? My sense is that instead of doing my 2-3 sets of kettlebell swings, I'm better of doing 2-3 more sets of deadlifts, or bent-over rows, or landmines, i.e., one of my stand-bys. Not that you have to choose, but I just didn't feel like I was getting as much benefit from the swings as from those kinds of lifts, and the swings seemed to strain my lower back a bit.
That's an interesting article for mens health, I tend to follow most of those tips. Where are the abz of steel core workouts?
Yah, I do pretty much all those things, except I don't really do explosive lifting (kinda hard with heavy weights), and never thought about contrastive training. Seems like both might be good ideas.

For explosive lifting, maybe I could do that when I'm pyramiding down from my max weight.

For contrastive training, I used to do plyo stuff at the end of my 'bottom' st workout (deadlifts, squats, etc.). Maybe I should do that again . . .

No idea about the abs of steel core workouts. I've lost interest in all recent fitness trends. Traditional weights and recreational running pretty much do the trick for me.
 
I mix the 500 swings into my workout, along the lines of speed work in between sets. For example I will do a ladder of deadlifts intermixed with swings something like this:

10 Swings
3 DL 255
15 Swings
2 DL 275
25 Swings
1 DL 295
50 Swings

After 5 sets of this I am pretty wiped out and my hands are killing me. I do it with squats occasionally as well.

I've also been laddering (is that a word?) my DL's and squats 3-2-1-3-2-1-3-2-1 instead of following wendler's 531 patterns. I like the lower reps for the lower body lifts and my back, knees and hips have less issues when running. Its the same amount of reps but for some reason my form always breaks down after 3 reps?

Its fun to try out all the methods like pyramiding, ladders, straight sets etc...

Its funny how some people are able to periodize successfully, I'm like you I take a good stretch whenever it happens and it always seems to be the opposite of when I would expect it. At this point I am even having a hard time setting concrete long term goals?
 
Its fun to try out all the methods like pyramiding, ladders, straight sets etc...

Its funny how some people are able to periodize successfully, I'm like you I take a good stretch whenever it happens and it always seems to be the opposite of when I would expect it. At this point I am even having a hard time setting concrete long term goals?
That kind of laddering sounds pretty intense. Probably too much effort for my lazy a$$. I keep telling myself I need to do more HIIT type stuff, but I never do.

I'm pretty basic. I haven't tried many training protocols. I like pyramiding, and breaking up the body into workout zones. Besides that I don't add a lot of variation. It gets boring at times, but with weights I don't like to think too much ... same with running too. I like to just go for a circuit route, maybe speed up here and there, but I've been pretty bad about speedwork, hills, tempo, and all that lately. One loop and I'm pretty satisfied. If I have extra energy, I'll push it up to tempo pace. The rest of the time, I just coast at aerobic pace. If I get tired, I stop to stretch. I would like to get faster, but for the moment I'm happy just running decent distances. In September and the beginning of this month, I just felt like the time to make a push had come, and my intuition was right. I made the jump to greater distances and weekly mileage fairly effortlessly, and without mishap.

That Ferrugia article you linked to a while ago helped confirm my basic approach with weights. Basically, I start with the heavy lifts, pyramid up to my max weight as a warm-up, and then pyramid down in smaller increments, gaining reps as I go down. So for the bench I may start at 75 for a warm-up, 3-8 reps, 1-3 sets, then 125, then 175, then 195 or 215, then 225. I don't do max reps at any increment, keeping it at 3-5 reps for the most part, just warming things up and making sure I'm ready for the next increment, with fairly short breaks, until I get to my current max, 225, which I can only do one or two times. I take longer breaks at max or close to max, Then when I can no longer do one rep of those, usually 2-4 sets, I take it down 20 pounds, do that until I have trouble single-rep-ing, going down, and adding initial reps at each increment, until I get down to around 125, which I may be able to do 10 reps at first, but I keep doing fairly consecutive sets until I can only manage 1-2 reps of those, close to failure. Same with other heavy lifts. So I'm doing both low reps/high weight and low weight/high reps for the same exercise. Reintroducing pyramiding, pruning some unnecessary exercises, and dividing my workouts into 4 weekly sessions instead of 3, has accelerated my progress, meager as it is.

Anyway, it feels good to have adopted the same approach to running that I've always had for weights. Just take it as it comes, let the improvements come on their own. Like you say, sometimes you break through onto a new plateau when you least expect it. I'm pretty sure this is the best method for avoiding injury, but probably not very good for more performance-oriented folks.
 
Hey, a minor twang in my shoulder blade region got me out of my normal ST routine this week. I usually break up my st workouts into four different body zones--front, back, top, and bottom. Now I'm thinking about mixing things up a bit more, and try combining two body zones in the same workout. Kinda like staggered supersets but with normal breaks in between.

The advantages are [1] I get more of a metabolic boost by working more of the body in each workout, and [2] I work each zone twice a week instead of once. The disadvantage is that I don't work each zone as intensely in a given workout.

I've been making good, steady strength gains, but I still feel guilty for not doing more intense workouts. Working many of the body's big muscles in a single workout might be a way to assuage that guilt, without having to go gung-ho on a bone fide HIIT workout.

My single-zone or quarter-body week is

Sun: Front st
Mon: Bottom st
Tu:
Wed: Back st
Th:
Fri: Top st
Sat:

and a two-zone or half-body workout week would be something like this:

Sun: Bottom/Back
Mon: Front/Top
Tu:
Wed: Back/Bottom
Th:
Fri: Top/Front
Sat:

and the running schedule stays the same:

Sun: rest or run-commute
Mon: rest or run-commute
Tu: Mezzo or Macro run
Wed: rest or run-commute
Th: Mezzo run
Fri: rest or run-commute
Sat: Macro run

The plyometric, mobility, and most ab work is done after my morning run-commute.

I've uploaded my 'zone' or quarter-body workout schedule and a new, as-yet-untried 'two-zone' or half-body workout schedule.

Any thoughts?
 

Attachments

  • ST-4xW Quarter-Body Zone -- 13.11.04.pdf
    323.1 KB · Views: 0
  • ST-4xW Half-Body Staggered Zone -- 13.11.04.pdf
    318.2 KB · Views: 1
It was going for a week but then I realized it was one of those plans that shouldn't be combined with anything else. My hands were getting pretty beat up too and I had no energy to run. Now I just do 500 swings a day once a week. Similar benefit without the abuse.

It's race season again so I am changing my plan up. I'll post it up when I get it sorted out. I haven't had a chance to look over the mileage threads hows the daily running going?
Well, Kettlebell Swings might be back on the list. I just read this article: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online...heavy_kettlebell_swings_better_than_deadlifts
I was particularly intrigued by this:

"I'm not nearly as eloquent as Marianne, but nevertheless I've found that the transfer to deadlifting is incredible as long as you go heavy. . . . Best still, heavy swings don't destroy the body like maximal deadlifts do, so you can train them more frequently. In fact, you can put deadlifts on the backburner for a while and maintain your strength by doing heavy ass swings 2-3 times per week."

I used to do 70-80-pound swings, maybe I'll take it up to 100+ and see how that feels. I think I also need to work on my hip movement.
 
They do transfer well, maybe more to sumo style deadlifts. I think they transfer to running hills too. Just make sure you aren't using your knees and really keep it a hip movement. And don't go too crazy or your back will get fried.
 
They do transfer well, maybe more to sumo style deadlifts. I think they transfer to running hills too. Just make sure you aren't using your knees and really keep it a hip movement. And don't go too crazy or your back will get fried.
Yah, I don't do many hills around here, except down by the river, but if the swings work the hips and activation, then they're probably good for running period.
I think your new plans are good, not sure what your rep schemes are but even at 1 rep you are getting strong.
For the heavy stuff, the weights listed are my single-rep maxes. For lighter stuff, I usually do 3-8 reps at max weight. On most heavier exercises, and some lighter ones, I now pyramid, going up fairly quickly and in larger increments to warm-up, then coming down more slowly in smaller increments as I tire, sometimes close to failure, oftentimes not. No set number of sets or reps though for any given exercise; I just go by feel. Kind of like my running these days. Sometimes I run two long runs in a week, sometimes I'll do some intervals or track work, sometimes I just do one-hour easy runs. I just go by mood and whatever external conditions I have to consider.

I did my first half-body st session yesterday--"Bottom/Back." I think this will be good for me. Plus it takes a little pressure off. Yesterday my kids were hanging out with me, which was distracting, so I didn't do my single rep max deadlift--it's too dangerous without total concentration. I worked on more explosive lifting at 225 instead. But on Wednesday I have my squats, so it's not like I have to wait a whole week to get in a decent lower body pump again. One good thing about having the kids around is I took my tipping bird exercise more seriously, since it was a fun one for them to see. That's really a great hammie/glute exercise, good for the balance too.
 
OK, yesterday I was doing trap deadlifts for the first time in a while, and felt a twinge in my knee cap, so I shut it down quick. I was at 285lbs, which I was doing in the 3-5 rep range, so it was good but not huge effort otherwise, yet for some reason it put pressure on the knee cap. Could just be a one-off experience, but I think I'll go back to barbell deadlifts for a few weeks.

Any thoughts?

I was pretty tight the whole day and had some tofp after an 11-mile run the day before in which my legs felt stiff the whole run. I had been massaging and rolling the lower leg the whole day yesterday before lifting but it was only after lifting that I discovered I needed to massage my itb more. I had only been focusing on my lower legs. I could feel the relief in my feet as I dug in the itb. So that might be part of the knee twinge, although the twinge was on my right knee and the tofp was mostly on my left foot.

Another factor is that trap deadlifts work the quads more, and the hammies less, right? So that might have something to do with it. There's probably more pressure on the knee with trapbar deadlifts.

A third factor to consider is the fact that the week before, I started to some plyo jumps, so there could be some adaptation going on, although this morning I just did some 14" box jumps with no twinging from the knee.

So it's probably the difference between the trapbar versus barbell, but I'd be interesting in hearing any other opinions. Tomorrow is my squat day, so I'm a little bit anxious about the knee. I've never felt anything in the knee cap before, although once in a while I'll feel a little strain inside the joint.
 
That is a little odd I've never felt anything in the kneecap area from TBDL's, I have from front squats though. Something I like to do when doing heavy trap pulls is after a rep lower the weight and stand up without the weight and then squat back down and pull another rep. It helps keep my back in a good position each rep. Sometimes when you touch an go you don't lower your hips enough it throws off your positioning with the trap bar.

Or it could possibly be the other direction, as you may be getting too low when you initially pull. You could also try keeping your hips a little higher but make sure your back is not rounding as you pull.

You use standard weights so are they the same diameter as the olympic version?
 
So I was lacking motivation to run and lift last week and I decided to try to run Dan John's 40 day program for the next couple of months. I have some vacations, trips and races coming up and I couldn't get my lifting consistent on the plan I was following. The last couple of days have gone well, I really like the rule of 10 concept. A little soreness so far but nothing too bad.

The first two weeks are:
Squat
Dead Lift
Bench
Farmers walks/Sled pushes or both
Ab rolls

I might try to add some frequency pullups in there too? But so far my back is pretty fried from the carries and DL.

http://danjohn.net/2011/06/even-easier-strength-perform-better-notes/
 
That is a little odd I've never felt anything in the kneecap area from TBDL's, I have from front squats though. Something I like to do when doing heavy trap pulls is after a rep lower the weight and stand up without the weight and then squat back down and pull another rep. It helps keep my back in a good position each rep. Sometimes when you touch an go you don't lower your hips enough it throws off your positioning with the trap bar.

Or it could possibly be the other direction, as you may be getting too low when you initially pull. You could also try keeping your hips a little higher but make sure your back is not rounding as you pull.

You use standard weights so are they the same diameter as the olympic version?
The biggest standard plates I have are 25lbs, about 12"-14" (I'm away from them now so can't get exact measurements), so I do get fairly low with the lift. The trap bar rests on the inverted handles. So my grip is just 6" or so off the ground. Still, I had been doing 265 lbs with the trap bar quite a bit last spring and summer, and I wouldn't think an extra 20lbs would make that much difference. On my barbell deadlifts I can do over 300 now, and haven't felt any strain, so perhaps it's my form or technique with the trap bar, as you suggest. I'll keep your pointers in mind next time I lift with the trap bar, but I'll give it a few weeks to make sure whatever was wrong has a chance to get right. Could've just been one of the days when things don't go right, but I felt pretty good and the rest of my lower body felt primed to bring it up over 300lbs for the first time with the trap deadlifts.

So I was lacking motivation to run and lift last week and I decided to try to run Dan John's 40 day program for the next couple of months. I have some vacations, trips and races coming up and I couldn't get my lifting consistent on the plan I was following. The last couple of days have gone well, I really like the rule of 10 concept. A little soreness so far but nothing too bad.

The first two weeks are:
Squat
Dead Lift
Bench
Farmers walks/Sled pushes or both
Ab rolls

I might try to add some frequency pullups in there too? But so far my back is pretty fried from the carries and DL.

http://danjohn.net/2011/06/even-easier-strength-perform-better-notes/
Well, I like the idea of basing my workouts on one or two heavy lifts, as you know, but that seems a little extreme. Not a lot of time for recovery. I don't know if alternating easy with hard is enough recovery. I think that works for aerobic exercise, but I've always felt body zones need a good 48hrs to 72hrs to recover when doing anaerobic stuff at hard effort. It'll be interesting to see how this works for you. I like his idea of doing stuff by feel at times, as that's the way I've always done things. On last Friday's workout, for example, I did dips and shoulder presses, and mostly ignored all the other exercises, because that's what the vibe seemed to be for that day.

More and more, I find my approach is pretty close to Jason Ferruggia's, at least for strength-training. I spent some more time procrastinating by reading his blog the other day. I also run endurance too, however, which Jason thinks is useless for his purposes. The main difference between his and my st approach is that I pyramid all my heavy lifts, at least going up, and more and more, coming down from the max as well. I've always gotten good results this way, so I don't really see any reason to mess with it. Sets and reps are completely by feel. The only thing I really mess with is combinations of exercises and their ordering. In my second week of combining two body zones in the same st session, things are going really well. I'm pretty sure this will hasten my improvements.

The one change I'm making, or have been making, is to get more serious about conditioning exercises, outside of my usual running and lifting. A corruption of HIIT, I call it MINT, or Medium Intensity Non-interval Training. I now have a full set of gear--medicine ball, adjustable plyo box, decline sit-up bench, ankle weights, and "power wheel" (which is an ab wheel with foot pedals)--in my office for doing 10-20 minutes of conditioning work as soon as I arrive in the morning. That, together with the 9-to-10-minute run-commute I have getting here, gives me about 20-30 minutes of fasted cardio first thing in the morning, something Jason recommends. I've always meant to do more of this stuff, but could never motivate to do it as part of my lifting routines, nor before or after a run. I think separating it from my running and lifting workouts and doing it first thing in the morning will lead to good things. I may already be getting results, although I'm taking it real slow and easing into it, to kind of let the routine shape up organically, and to make sure it doesn't interfere with my running or lifting later in the day.

I've uploaded the latest version. The MINT exercises are on the fifth page. I don't do all of the exercises in a single session, at least not yet. The exercises are done with ankle weights until you get to the bottom ones:
 

Attachments

  • ST Top-Bottom, Front-Back -- 13.11.12.pdf
    322.1 KB · Views: 1
  • Like
Reactions: NickW
The biggest standard plates I have are 25lbs, about 12"-14" (I'm away from them now so can get exact measurements), so I do get fairly low with the lift. The trap bar rests on the inverted handles. So my grip is just 6" or so off the ground. Still, I had been doing 265 lbs with the trap bar quite a bit last spring and summer, and I wouldn't think an extra 20lbs would make a difference. On my barbell deadlifts I can do over 300 now, and haven't felt any strain, so perhaps it's my form or technique with the trap bar, as you suggest. I'll keep your pointers in mind next time I lift with the trap bar, but I'll give it a few weeks to make sure whatever was wrong has a chance to get right. Could've just been one of the days when things don't go right, but I felt pretty good and the rest of my lower body felt primed to bring it up over 300lbs for the first time with the trap deadlifts.:

Yeah that's low you should try to lift them off the ground some so you start around 12"? I bet you that low your knees are pretty far ahead of your toes which can cause some knee pain. One other option would be to really push your butt back and keep the knee bend to a minimum.
 

Support Your Club

Forum statistics

Threads
19,152
Messages
183,614
Members
8,701
Latest member
Barefoot RPS