It's funny any test you would look at is definitely geared towards the target crowd, the strength stuff is more on the beginner level and the speed/endurance stuff is much more towards the intermediate/advanced level.
Optimal strength training for runners
- Thread starter Abide
- Start date
It's funny any test you would look at is definitely geared towards the target crowd, the strength stuff is more on the beginner level and the speed/endurance stuff is much more towards the intermediate/advanced level.
I'm not sure that I understand. If you mean that in general, competitive distance runners aren't the strongest athletes and have relatively greater speed/endurance, that's probably the nature of the sport, right?
Yeah exactly that test was in runners world so it would be from a runners perspective. I like looking at them for shits and giggles, I think to get the best of both worlds you should probably take their speed and endurance tests and couple them with some tests that are more geared to lifting. There is no reason you can't be above average in both if you want.
Thanks, most helpful.
I'll settle for being below average at this point. But I agree with the basic premise. Instead of trying to assess my strengths and weaknesses, I shoot for overall fitness and hope for the best.
I agree with both of you. This thread is titled "Optimal strength training for runners". The discussion is more of optimal balance of strength training and running, which is fine with me. I think pro distance runners are a bit too skinny, as compared to my personal goals.
Yah, you're right, I probably shouldn't even be participating on this thread because I have little interest in optimizing my strength training for running. My overall routine is definitely run-centric, but my strength training is pretty evenly distributed over all areas of the body, as is my mobility/stretching work. To optimize my strength training for running, I'd have to reduce my upper body stuff and double up on my lower body stuff. Not happening.
And there's so many different kinds of runners. Trail running I would think requires more lower body strength, balance and agility than road running, and track running probably requires even less strength than road running, since it involves no hills. But almost all runners except sprinters are too skinny for me. I know I will never be proficient at any kind of running over 800 meters unless I get down to 160-170, but it's nice to be a little strong too, so 190-200 is probably best. I'll never be a real runner, or a real power lifter, for that matter, but if I can do a little of both, enjoy good health, and slow down the aging process a bit, I'm good. If others have more specific goals, that's all good too. By stating that I aim for general fitness, I didn't mean to say you were wrong in focusing on more specific performance goals. I just meant to say that none of that stuff really applies or is necessary for someone like me who's happy being mediocre in all facets of fitness. I guess in all these comments there's an implied comparison that isn't always intended.
Perhaps I could put it like this: I don't like thinking about this stuff too much while I'm doing it (I like to relax and let my mind wander after a full day of concentrating it), so I'm always looking for the dumbed-down version. For good form, I try to run faster, because I know I have better form when I run faster. I prefer the mental effort of picking up the pace over the mental effort of constantly analyzing my gait, footfall, cadence, knee lift, etc. Same for strength and mobility. Instead of thinking about my hip extension for running purposes, I prefer just to do all the tried-and-true exercises for lower body strength and mobility, and trust that this will serve my running as well. Abide got me to see the importance of squats for running in this thread, it's true, but squats are a keystone to any lower body conditioning, and once I found out they aren't bad for the knees, I was happy to include them in my overall plan. That they benefit my running is just frosting on the cake.
blah, blah, blah
P.S., if you're still interested in increasing your pace, I think you should consider fartleks. Jason runs mostly trails, and most of his training is doing fartleks. I don't know if he has to deal with as many roots and snakes as you do
, but I would think there must be some sections where you could pick up the pace a bit without risking injury.Yeah probably a bad title name for the pupose. It's all about personal goals and figuring out the best way to get there. I used to have the crossfit mentality of programming strenth training, random various stuff, but now I do believe that following a core program for a longer period of time is probably one of the best things you can do. I've also been working more conditioning thanks to you two, I'm really enjoying it too. So I think it is important to have some specific foundational work, but also leave some flexibility in there to keep things interesting.
Here's a pretty fast and strong dude at obstacle racing
http://www.hobiecall.com/category/workouts/
Here's a pretty fast and strong dude at obstacle racing
http://www.hobiecall.com/category/workouts/
Yeah probably a bad title name for the purpose. It's all about personal goals and figuring out the best way to get there. I used to have the crossfit mentality of programming strength training, random various stuff, but now I do believe that following a core program for a longer period of time is probably one of the best things you can do.
Seems like the best thing for us two, but a lot of people find free weights boring, so perhaps for them more of a crossfit, never-ending variety approach is best. Like I always say, anything that you enjoy and keeps you coming back for more is the best fitness approach. I just happen to enjoy free weights and running. I can do both for years without getting bored, but I'm also not putting that much effort into it. I just do my routines, push it on the days when I'm feeling it, go through the motions when I'm not, and voila, I attain basic fitness and the doc says all my gauges look good.
That said, I do enjoy finding out about what other people are doing and try to keep an open mind. I think Sid's got me talked into checking out clubbells (will try to make my diy ones this weekend) and this thread's general discussion has got me thinking about ramping up the circuit training stuff I do at the end of my workouts a bit more.
I've also been working more conditioning thanks to you two, I'm really enjoying it too.
The problem with conditioning stuff is that it requires more mental effort, like doing intervals, and I'm not always up for it. 10-15 minutes at the end of my st workouts is probably all I'm good for. But we'll see.
So I think it is important to have some specific foundational work, but also leave some flexibility in there to keep things interesting.
Here's a pretty fast and strong dude at obstacle racing
He seems to be training more for stamina or endurance strength. I don't think I could do bent-over rows with a 10-pound weight! I'm already outgrowing my 60-pounder. But that's a great conditioning routine! Might have to try something like that once a week ...
Seems like the best thing for us two, but a lot of people find free weights boring, so perhaps for them more of a crossfit, never-ending variety approach is best. Like I always say, anything that you enjoy and keeps you coming back for more is the best fitness approach. I just happen to enjoy free weights and running. I can do both for years without getting bored, but I'm also not putting that much effort into it. I just do my routines, push it on the days when I'm feeling it, go through the motions when I'm not, and voila, I attain basic fitness and the doc says all my gauges look good.
That said, I do enjoy finding out about what other people are doing and try to keep an open mind. I think Sid's got me talked into checking out clubbells (will try to make my diy ones this weekend) and this thread's general discussion has got me thinking about ramping up the circuit training stuff I do at the end of my workouts a bit more.
I've also been working more conditioning thanks to you two, I'm really enjoying it too.
The problem with conditioning stuff is that it requires more mental effort, like doing intervals, and I'm not always up for it. 10-15 minutes at the end of my st workouts is probably all I'm good for. But we'll see.
So I think it is important to have some specific foundational work, but also leave some flexibility in there to keep things interesting.
Here's a pretty fast and strong dude at obstacle racing
He seems to be training more for stamina or endurance strength. I don't think I could do bent-over rows with a 10-pound weight! I'm already outgrowing my 60-pounder. But that's a great conditioning routine! Might have to try something like that once a week ...
Same here, even if I am not going to use it now I still feel like it is beenficial to learn. It always seems like two years after I hear about something I give it a try.
You know my easy/moderate runs have been mentally challenging lately, I have been having more fun changing it up a little. Your right though it is tough I 've been splitting them up between morning and afternoon.
Yeah he is one of the best obstacle runners out there, he's light, fast and has really good endurance and can knock out body weight stuff like its nothing. Most of my conditioning has been body weight only, I am liking it better than doing the crossfit-eque conditioning.
Jason also has a lot more experience as an athlete, like you and Abide. Plus, he also did Crossfit (or some offshoot/variant) in the past. I'm going to work on those exercises, then work on all that other stuff. Plus, swimming, and strength training. My plate's already pretty full!P.S., if you're still interested in increasing your pace, I think you should consider fartleks. Jason runs mostly trails, and most of his training is doing fartleks. I don't know if he has to deal with as many roots and snakes as you do
btw Sid you mentioned some glute weakness so I figure I'd post this link.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online...raining_performance/dispelling_the_glute_myth
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online...raining_performance/dispelling_the_glute_myth
A fair number of those exercises are included in my mobility list above, sometimes with different names (e.g., 'fire hydrant' = dirty dog). I've been doing them for a few months now, usually with ankle weights, and I'm pretty sure they help, maybe a lot. I do a lot of them right before a run, quickly, usually without any weights, to help keep the ITBS at bay. So just adding my two cents' worth of endorsement here.
Still, nothing like deadlifts and squats. I did a light version of them yesterday, because I aggravated my MCL a bit two days ago, and was being careful not to aggravate it further, but I still have sore glutes today. Hills are also excellent for glutes, in case that hasn't already been mentioned.
It would be cool to figure out a way to use my cables to do that pendulum quadruped hip extension exercise.
I wonder what butt-lock looks like? Is it the functional equivalent of a sort of reverse chastity belt?
True, but the beauty of fartleks is you can do them in the middle of any run, for as long as want to, as fast or slow as you want, for whatever distance appeals to you. There's no real rhyme or reason to them, unlike, say, doing 440s down at the track. So if on one of your trails there's a section that's pretty clear, just try opening it up a bit there, and then go back to your regularly scheduled run when the surface becomes dodgy again. It was a real revelation for me last spring when I realized I could do different paces in the same run, and downright exhilarating when I sprinted for the last bit and felt my lungs burn. Anyway, sorry for beating a dead horse. I'll shut up now . . .
You know, I was reading this article about running, and I think that I might have to give it a try. Some people have even posted that they've had positive results.
But seriously, I do vary it quite a bit according to terrain. As you may recall from my mileage posts, that I'm often racing against waning sunlight, too. Plus, at the university, I have to navigate the sidewalk for a bit to get from the parking garage to the trail. My times are probably fastest on that, part of which is because I don't want to be the slow barefoot runner that all the kids gawk at.
But seriously, I do vary it quite a bit according to terrain. As you may recall from my mileage posts, that I'm often racing against waning sunlight, too. Plus, at the university, I have to navigate the sidewalk for a bit to get from the parking garage to the trail. My times are probably fastest on that, part of which is because I don't want to be the slow barefoot runner that all the kids gawk at.
A good overview.
BTW, here's how the clubbells turned out.
Made with this
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003D6FEPE/ref=oh_details_o02_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
sand,
and this
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003S2E4UE/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
to repair the hole at the bottom where the sand went in (the white caps in the pictures).
My kids enjoyed helping put the sand in with a funnel and packing it down. A lot of dyi projects aren't really worth the extra time, but clubbells can be pretty expensive. Only time with tell how these ones hold up.
15.4 lbs together on my scale, so 7.7 lbs each. Might be a bit heavy for a beginner like me, at least until I get the form down. I'll give them a try later today. Finally got around to making them just yesterday.
Also, I posted this on the mileage forum, but I'll repost it here to see what you or anyone else who visits that forum infrequently might think.
I finished last week with two st sessions, which I innovated a bit. I kept all the stuff that works the the legs, like the squats, deadlifts, and leg extensions in Friday's Back ST workout, two days before my 'long' run on Sunday, and then on Saturday I did the back stuff that I took out of Friday's ST workout, like rows, hip thrusts, kettlebell swings, back extensions, and the like. Finally, I took a lot of leg-intensive plyo stuff from what used to be Saturday's Bottom ST workout, and combined them with Friday's ST stuff. So now Friday's ST is a 'Bottom' workout, and Saturday is a 'Back' workout.
This solved two problems for me: one, I don't like to do leg stuff the day before a regular run, because it makes my legs feel heavy. Two, I don't like taking rest days, but was always looking for stuff that wouldn't interfere with the next day's LS weekend run. I kept missing my plyo day for that reason, but now I've taken a bunch of the plyo-type exercises and combined them with the weights stuff that work the legs and glutes.
Have you (Abide) or anyone else had trouble running the day after doing squats or other leg/glute work?
So now the (idealized) weekly routine is:
Sun:
Macro-run
Mon:
ST Front (Chest & Upper Arm) & micro-run
Tues:
Meso-run (Intervals/Hills/Fartleks)
Wed:
ST Top (Lats & Shoulders) & micro-run
Thurs:
Meso Run (Tempo/Cruise Intervals)
Fri:
ST Bottom (Legs, Hips, & Glutes) & micro-run
Sat:
ST Back & mini-run
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