Optimal strength training for runners

#261
Bare Lee said:
Two other books you might consider are:
"The Ultimate Guide to Weight Training for Running," by Robert Price
and
"Which Comes First, Cardio or Weights?", by Alex Hutchinson
I have both books, along with Dicharry's Anatomy for Runners,
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I just finished Anatomy for Runners. It's nice book. A lot of it makes sense. DiCharry has a good section on how to deal with injuries.

There a section on assessing different areas of the body. I'll have to try the different tests and see how I do, then maybe go through the different exercises one by one. I had done a lot of the suggested exercises in the past, as they were part of the P90X2 videos. The Tony Horton One on One 4 Legs video, which has all one leg strength/balance exercises, helped, too. Interestingly, I think that my running got better along that time, too. A lot of the exercises are bodyweight. He also briefly suggests power-oriented strength training such as Olympic lifts.

I had been using the heated massager the entire time to keep the muscles loose, although he suggested using a foam roller and LAX ball. Eh, I'm lazy. I'll stick with my massager.
 
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#262
Sid said:
I just finished Anatomy for Runners. It's nice book. A lot of it makes sense. DiCharry has a good section on how to deal with injuries.

There a section on assessing different areas of the body. I'll have to try the different tests and see how I do, then maybe go through the different exercises one by one. I had done a lot of the suggested exercises in the past, as they were part of the P90X2 videos. The Tony Horton One on One 4 Legs video, which has all one leg strength/balance exercises, helped, too. Interestingly, I think that my running got better along that time, too. A lot of the exercises are bodyweight. He also briefly suggests power-oriented strength training such as Olympic lifts.

I had been using the heated massager the entire time to keep the muscles loose, although he suggested using a foam roller and LAX ball. Eh, I'm lazy. I'll stick with my massager.
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Yah, I've become kind of bored with all this stuff. I guess I now know enough of the fundamentals to go back to a 'just run' or 'just lift' approach, with the confidence to trouble shoot anything that comes up, or improvise a new plan for the day if I'm particularly inspired or, conversely, especially tired. And I'm really happy that I've learned how to keep the ITBS at bay.

For me, I do strength training that hits all areas of the body, run with a variety of intensities--but mostly moderate to easy--and stretch (static and dynamic/mobility) and massage, in order to stay limber and injury-free. For massaging, I like foam rollers for my ITB and upper leg, 'the stick' for lower leg, and the electric massager for both my lower and upper leg. My wife has expropriated the massager you recommended, so it's now parked in the bedroom. For my office, where I spend most of the day sitting, I just got this today:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0039H65D2/ref=oh_details_o09_s00_i00
It seems pretty good, although I haven't really tested it yet. It's a bit smaller than the other one, which makes it easier to use on my lower leg. It's not heated, a minus, but has more massage options, a plus.

Anyway, for me, the massager, roller, and stick all are beneficial in their own ways. I use all three, and right now that seems to be working.

As for the st stuff, I would say for you, that if your running is going fine, don't worry too much about any specific exercises. The fact that you can run decent distances close to every day suggests that you don't need to focus on strength training to support your running. I would think you could just do what you like or what you think benefits you for overall fitness. That said, seems like everyone should be doing deadlifts and squats at least a little bit . . .
 
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#263
Bare Lee said:
As for the st stuff, I would say for you, that if your running is going fine, don't worry too much about any specific exercises. The fact that you can run decent distances close to every day suggests that you don't need to focus on strength training to support your running. I would think you could just do what you like or what you think benefits you for overall fitness. That said, seems like everyone should be doing deadlifts and squats at least a little bit . . .
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I'm an okay runner in terms of endurance, however my pace has plateaued. I don't generally worry that much about pace. However, it would be more fun to go faster, and running is all about maximizing fun for me.

Dicharry makes a nice analogy to race cars, that race drivers spend a lot of time tuning the chassis. Power without body stability and strength results in injuries, just like a car with a powerful engine but crappy chassis would tear itself apart.

Anyway, I did the 10 tests and found out that I needed to work on my glutes. However, I started working through each exercise one by one, because I figured that in order to be a proficient runner, one should be strong enough to do all the exercises. I'm glad that I did. Although I didn't outright fail the tests, actually performing the exercises really highlighted some areas that I need to work on. If I can do an exercise without any problems, I'll move on. If I struggle somewhat, I'm adding it to my "to do" list.

I think that you'd get a lot out of the book. Here's my thoughts.
Read/skim up to page 61. This covers injuries and anatomy. It talks about not just resting after injury, but identifying weak areas to strengthen to prevent reinjury. That sounds like a good idea to me.
Chapter 6 talks about strength.
Chapter 8 talks about proper gait, spring loading. I think you'd like this part.
Page 187. I found the mobility tests to be vaguely helpful.
Page 234. However, actually running through the exercises will highlight any problem areas.

You can probably skip Chapter 5, it talks about soft tissue mobility.
Chapter 7 is about footwear. We talk enough about that in this forum.

As for me, I think that I'm going to continue working on the exercises listed in the book. I'll also do some strength training focusing on the glutes. And I'll keep up the circuit strength training and swimming practice. Once I feel proficient with the exercises, I'll head back out on the trail and see how it goes.
 
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#264
Sid said:
I'm an okay runner in terms of endurance, however my pace has plateaued. I don't generally worry that much about pace. However, it would be more fun to go faster, and running is all about maximizing fun for me.

As for me, I think that I'm going to continue working on the exercises listed in the book. I'll also do some strength training focusing on the glutes. And I'll keep up the circuit strength training and swimming practice. Once I feel proficient with the exercises, I'll head back out on the trail and see how it goes.
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Thanks, I'll try to look through the book soon, focusing on the sections you recommended. But right now I'm really gung ho in my own work, and am trying to read about two books a day. The ideas are really coming to me these days. It's great to be re-inspired after a period of 6-9 months of feeling flat.

I agree that it's funner to run (relatively) fast. For improving pace, I think the best thing to do, as you've heard me say already, is to work in tempo runs and intervals/fartleks/hill sprints. Almost everyone seems to agree on this. Here's an interesting article, one of dozens, confirming that point:
http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/canova-101?page=single
Here's the gist of it:

"A Kenyan runner's mentality is to run at the right speed," says Canova's assistant in Iten, Kenya. "The Western runner's mentality is to run the right distance."

So, for example, on your 9 mi trail run, perhaps break it into three sections of three miles or so, and try to cut down the pace by 30 seconds or a minute per mile, and take some kind of break--walking, jogging, or stretching--after each section.

For running-specific strength-training, I think you've hit the nail on the head: almost everyone says that the glutes are the most common area of weakness. Deadlifts and squats are two of the best ways to fix this problem, along with hip abduction and adduction exercises. Although, that said, if you aren't having any problems with your knees or ITB, your glutes are probably just fine. Hmmn, that didn't come out right.

For core stability, a lot of people will tell you that if you're lifting heavy weights, you're already developing core stability quite a bit. I tried some plank exercises, and found them pretty useless compared to the benefit I get from lifts and rows and presses. You simply can't lift a bunch of weight over your head, as with the military press, for example, without a stable core. That said, I do have a wobble board arriving today that I'm going to play around with. Maybe try doing some light dumbbell exercises at the end of my workout while trying to maintain balance on it. Still, I still think real sports or martial arts are the best way to develop balance and agility.

A lot of stuff on these lists of my routines, especially on the first--mobility--works the glutes as well:

MOBILITY
Abduction, Flex & Ext with ankle weights
Leg swing with ankle weights
Reverse Leg Lift with ankle weights
Lateral Leg Raises with ankle weights
Climber with ankle weights
Spiderman with ankle weights
Dirty Dog with ankle weights
Donkey Kick with ankle weights
Donkey Whip with ankle weights
Iron Cross with ankle weights
Knee Tuck with ankle weights
Bridge
Brazilian Crunches
Pilates Hundred
Pilates 'The Rolling Ball'
Pilates 'The Saw' c/bar
Superman

STRETCHES
High Leg stretch
ITB stretch
Standing Quad Stretch
Splits stretch
Spread Eagle stretch
Kneeling & Foot stretches
Pike
Lunge with side stretch
Lunge with quad stretch
Bow
Pigeon forward fold

STABILITY BALL
Ab tuck
Side-lying leg lifts
Hamstring roll
Side crunch

And I think my running benefits most from alternating it with weight days, it keeps me fresh and I think the constant switching between anaerobic and aerobic is a good stimulus for adaptation. But I'm also digging my micro-runs on my st days. I think your cross-training with swimming is also an excellent way to go.

Anyway, look forward to hearing how this all goes for you, as always. We're of similar mind sets and sensibilities, so I can learn a lot from your experimentation.
 
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#265
Sid said:
Anyway, I did the 10 tests and found out that I needed to work on my glutes. However, I started working through each exercise one by one, because I figured that in order to be a proficient runner, one should be strong enough to do all the exercises. I'm glad that I did. Although I didn't outright fail the tests, actually performing the exercises really highlighted some areas that I need to work on. If I can do an exercise without any problems, I'll move on. If I struggle somewhat, I'm adding it to my "to do" list.
Click to expand...

What are the 10 tests?
 
#266
Yeah, but all those Kenyans have been active since childhood. I'm coming from the majority of Westerners who need to tighten and tune up the body after decades of inactivity, before doing more speedwork. It's like when people tune up their Honda Civic and expect to have sports car handling. I can run faster, but I'm sore for days after, like the race car tearing itself apart.

I understand that one can rebuild a car to make it faster, but everything has to be upgraded. I'm doing some upgrades before I push it further.I've realized that sprinters are so buff, because their bodies need to be strong to handle the sheer power exerted.
 
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#268
Sid said:
Yeah, but all those Kenyans have been active since childhood. I'm coming from the majority of Westerners who need to tighten and tune up the body after decades of inactivity, before doing more speedwork.
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I think that's a valid point, so just work it in slowly. And start with slightly faster paces, not out-and-out sprints.
Sid said:
It's like when people upgrade their Honda Civic and expect to have a sports car handling. I can run faster, but I'm sore for days after, like the race car tearing itself apart. I've realized that sprinters are so buff, because their bodies need to be strong to handle the sheer power exerted.
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Instead of jumping from a Honda Civic to a Porsche, try a Volvo or something.

You've already got good endurance, and the fact that you can run pretty far means that your joints are already toughened up. So we're really just talking about your muscles. Muscles adapt quickly and muscle soreness is a sign of adaptation. So you just have to pace yourself, so to speak. So besides working on the strength training, in whatever form you decide on, try to also work in some intervals, maybe just a coupla 440s once a week at first. Or try some kind of progression run. You could just try to push the last mile or so. Hills are another great option.

I'm older than you (right?), and didn't have any real trouble when I started doing 440s down at the track when was it, early last fall? Or was it late summer? Anyway, within a couple of tries I was able to run a mile at 8mm pace, and 440s at 7mm pace. Of course, then all hell broke lose with my MCL and the other stuff thereafter, but the intervals themselves didn't seem to pose any particular problem. Just build them up slowly.

I'm going to continue taking it easy for a bit more now, just to make sure everything is in order, but once the snow melts, I'll definitely be raring to go with track work again. It's a lot of fun, and like you say, fun is the most important thing in all of this. Well, I guess I would rank fitness first, but I try to have both. I'm still hoping I'll achieve my goal of running an hour at 8mm pace this year, and I think I know how to get there, I just need to be a little more patient and make sure to keep everything well-oiled and limber.

Abide said:
Pics
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Nice! Thanks, that helps a lot. A side and rear view angle would be helpful as well. I might try to make one when it gets a little warmer out. I got a table saw in the garage so it should be doable.
 
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#269
Bare Lee said:
You've already got good endurance, and the fact that you can run pretty far means that your joints are already toughened up. So we're really just talking about your muscles.
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I think that our circumstances are a bit different. I appreciate that you get a lot out of higher paced runs.

The natural surfaces that I enjoy is different than what most runners prefer. It's quite unstable with lots of dirt, grass, and even beach sand. Forget Porsche or Volvo, think rally car suspension, tilting, twisting, sliding. That's what makes it challenging. Every run, even every step is different! So, I'll be working on balance, strength, and flexibility. We were born to run, and this is the stuff we were born to run on.
 
#271
Bare Lee said:
???
:confused:
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I'm not going to be able to do the kind of speedwork that you do with the terrain that I run on, such as beach sand. Also, the trail limits my speed because I have to look down and jump over tree roots and not trip over them. Think Indy car racng vs rally car racing. Different tracks, different cars, different suspensions, different strategies.
 
#272
Sid said:
I'm not going to be able to do the kind of speedwork that you do with the terrain that I run on, such as beach sand. Also, the trail limits my speed because I have to look down and jump over tree roots and not trip over them. Think Indy car racng vs rally car racing. Different tracks, different cars, different suspensions, different strategies.
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Yah I understand, I just don't get then, how it is you intend to run faster. I'm definitely not trying to tell you how or where to run. (And I'm a little uncomfortable calling what I do 'speedwork'--my max is around 7mm, which is jogging for serious runners!)

I think trail running is the best by far, and would choose that over my road running if it were more accessible. Unfortunately, the nearest trail is about 25-30 minutes away on the freeway, and since I tend to run towards the end of the afternoon, it would take even longer in rush hour. Maybe when my long runs get to be 90-120 minutes I can justify getting out there once or twice a month. I used to have to go out to that area every two weeks anyway, last summer, so it was easy.

Still, the trails around here are pretty tame, mostly compacted dirt and gravelly sections, so I could easily do fartleks without too much risk of tripping.
 
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#273
Bare Lee said:
Yah I understand, I just don't get then, how it is you intend to run faster. I'm definitely not trying to tell you how or where to run. (And I'm a little uncomfortable calling what I do 'speedwork'--my max is around 7mm, which is jogging for serious runners!)
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My pace on the road is about 1-2min faster then on the trail, so I think it's a matter of working on those exercises for stability and balance and stregthening the gluts. I love running in loose sand. You get nowhere fast, but it's a great workout and the variability keeps it challenging. It's also where bare feet trumps all footwear. There are occasional roots in the sand on the university trail, which can be painful, if I don't keep my eyes on the ground.
 
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