While I was typing my other post about running in shoes for winter I thought about another question I had but decided to separate the posts, since this one is about barefoot. Anyhow... my first winter a year ago I could really only handle about 40ºF bare. I've got some runs in the 30's lately. My feet tend to go numb quickly but warm back up, usually in about a mile. However, on my right foot my 2nd and 3rd toe stay numb. The rest of my foot is fine after the first mile, just those two toes, and on my right foot. A circulation issue? Is it 'ok' to continue running for extended periods with numb toes? I don't want to actually hurt them, but maybe its fine. The last couple runs this happened were in the 5-7 mile range, and afterwards when I came inside to warm up, the toes went through an awful itching phase for a good while. I really wanted to tear them off my foot lol. I can't actually get frostbite if its above freezing right?
winter: numb toes
- Thread starter Tristan
- Start date
"A circulation issue?" Yes. I have the same problem with 2 of my toes (the worst ones that got frostbite last year).
"Is it ok to continue running for extended periods with numb toes?" No! It's not good to run with any numbness. Several here, including myself have gotten into trouble thinking the toes will warm up with continued running. At the first sign of numbness, I warm up the toes. I doesn't take long, I just stick a glove on my toes briefly. Usually it will happen at the start of the run, once I have warmed up, I can continue on. (Winter Challenge guys - I always round my mileage down, so no, I'm not cheatin'
)
"I can't actually get frostbite if its above freezing" I would say yes, depending on the conditions (wet, snow, windchill). You can certainly get frost nip. I got into trouble last year running through some cold mud. By the time I got the mud off, my toes were pretty cold.
It's always best to use caution in the cold. Do some more experimenting in the spring when temps. warm a little and they stop using so much salt everywhere.
"Is it ok to continue running for extended periods with numb toes?" No! It's not good to run with any numbness. Several here, including myself have gotten into trouble thinking the toes will warm up with continued running. At the first sign of numbness, I warm up the toes. I doesn't take long, I just stick a glove on my toes briefly. Usually it will happen at the start of the run, once I have warmed up, I can continue on. (Winter Challenge guys - I always round my mileage down, so no, I'm not cheatin'
)"I can't actually get frostbite if its above freezing" I would say yes, depending on the conditions (wet, snow, windchill). You can certainly get frost nip. I got into trouble last year running through some cold mud. By the time I got the mud off, my toes were pretty cold.
It's always best to use caution in the cold. Do some more experimenting in the spring when temps. warm a little and they stop using so much salt everywhere.
I would go with the "tear them off" idea....you could always get prosthetic in their place. 
In all seriousness
...not sure if this helps at all...but when I run in 40degree weather a few toes always stay numb...
probably not the best thing, but I could still feel the ground below my feet so I figured I was okay.
As far as frostbite - couldn't tell you....maybe our resident expert Rick or his apprentice Lee could give you some frostbite information.
In all seriousness
...not sure if this helps at all...but when I run in 40degree weather a few toes always stay numb...
probably not the best thing, but I could still feel the ground below my feet so I figured I was okay.
As far as frostbite - couldn't tell you....maybe our resident expert Rick or his apprentice Lee could give you some frostbite information.
On the other hand, if you've had decent enough runs at the 5 to 7 mile range and only had to warm your toes up as an aftermath (no blisters or other damage) why not go with the "run with it!" philosophy and just attend to the cold toes a bit, as needed, to start.
...or just leave them home as Zetti suggests.
As Mr. Nietzsche put it:
Was nicht mich umbricht mach mich starker. (I apologise for spelling mistakes. My keyboard doesn't do German well.)
= What doesn't kill me makes me stronger.
- Just to prove his maxim he died of Syphilis.
...or just leave them home as Zetti suggests.
As Mr. Nietzsche put it:
Was nicht mich umbricht mach mich starker. (I apologise for spelling mistakes. My keyboard doesn't do German well.)
= What doesn't kill me makes me stronger.
- Just to prove his maxim he died of Syphilis.
Well thats kind of the way I was thinking. I mean I understand now I could get frostbite even if the temps were a little above freezing if its wet & windy or on snow where the surface temp is actually below freezing etc, but that last numb run was in no danger of freezing... upper 30's, dry, no wind etc. I was mainly worried about the lack of circulation for a period of time causing any damage. I was making sure to try and pull my toes up, and no blisters or anything like that.
Sorry this might be a pointless debate since the temps and conditions are probably such that I won't be trying bare again for a while, but who knows what the rest of winter will be like. I'd still like to toughen my feet up to colder running, I just don't want to hurt anyhting, after all I'm doing bfr since its better for ya right? I just get envious of those that run on snow or -20 or whatever! Not to mention my current issues with shoes.
Oh wait...you still believe that crap?
The only reason I run barefoot is because the ladies love it!
I think it depends on the level of numbness. I've been barefooting in winter on and off for most of my adult life (I say "on and off" because I've spent about half of my adult life in warmer climes). I do stuff like grill outside, shovel the walk, get the mail, and go on short walks. Until last week, I've never had a problem with frost bite/nip, even though the feet invariably get a little numb when it's below 40F /5C or so, or even in the 40s if you're not moving around much.
I think there are three signs your numbing up number is up:
1), if your feet keep getting number and number even after one or two miles or 10-15 minutes of running, or if your feet numb up much more quickly than usual. Usually after a mile or so my feet-heat kicks in and the numb-plunge is stabilized or reversed, depending on temps/moisture/wind;
2), if your feet start to become stiff; and
3), if you get home and the feet tingle painfully.
Up until the week before last, I only had one instance of coming home and having the feet tingle painfully a bit, and that's over one and half winters of barefoot running. Even so the pain was very mild and only lasted a few minutes. Usually I just wait 10-15 minutes for the feet to warm up sufficiently so that the hot water of the shower isn't painful, but they aren't painful while they're warming up (but don't stand next to a heater or anything).
On my frost-nip mishap 10 days ago, I knew I should've started out shod until the feet-heat had kicked in, but I hadn't needed to put on shoes up until that day's run, and so I was stuck on the idea of trying to finish up 2012 purely bare. Fail. The feet numbed up really quickly, which was my sign that I was in over my head in the half inch of freshly fallen powdery snow.
As for which toes, I'm like you, my index toe is most sensitive, and my middle toe next. And those are the ones I noticed were white when I got frost nip. The other ones were still red at that point. Even last winter the very tip of one of my index toes got a little nip that took a few months to go away.
As for expert opinion, I think anyone who gets frost bite more than once or twice should get their license revoked. An expert understands their limits and does not exceed them. If you think it's neat to post a collection of photos showing all the times you've been frost bitten, you're more eccentric than expert, in my opinion.
And you can definitely get frost bite above freezing. Frost bite depends on body temperature, not air temperature. Our bodies are close to 100 F. When tissue becomes significantly colder than this for a certain amount of time, it can become damaged. Usually our circulation keeps this from happening, but if it can't keep up and counteract whatever it is that is cooling the skin (temp, wind, moisture, capillary constriction in order to maintain core body temp), damage can happen. And it doesn't take very long for it to occur. On my frostnip mishap I covered up after just 10 minutes or so, but it was already too late (it probably didn't help that I didn't bring socks along, so my feet were still exposed to relatively cold temps even once inside my shoes).
Interestingly, people who habitually work with their hands in the cold, like fishermen, do develop a mechanism for flushing their hands' capillaries with warm blood every 7 to 10 minutes. So adaptation, to some degree, is possible.
And be warned that Zetti's advice about women and bare feet may not be generalizable. He married a Brazilian, and they're all crazy (but in a good kind of way).
I think there are three signs your numbing up number is up:
1), if your feet keep getting number and number even after one or two miles or 10-15 minutes of running, or if your feet numb up much more quickly than usual. Usually after a mile or so my feet-heat kicks in and the numb-plunge is stabilized or reversed, depending on temps/moisture/wind;
2), if your feet start to become stiff; and
3), if you get home and the feet tingle painfully.
Up until the week before last, I only had one instance of coming home and having the feet tingle painfully a bit, and that's over one and half winters of barefoot running. Even so the pain was very mild and only lasted a few minutes. Usually I just wait 10-15 minutes for the feet to warm up sufficiently so that the hot water of the shower isn't painful, but they aren't painful while they're warming up (but don't stand next to a heater or anything).
On my frost-nip mishap 10 days ago, I knew I should've started out shod until the feet-heat had kicked in, but I hadn't needed to put on shoes up until that day's run, and so I was stuck on the idea of trying to finish up 2012 purely bare. Fail. The feet numbed up really quickly, which was my sign that I was in over my head in the half inch of freshly fallen powdery snow.
As for which toes, I'm like you, my index toe is most sensitive, and my middle toe next. And those are the ones I noticed were white when I got frost nip. The other ones were still red at that point. Even last winter the very tip of one of my index toes got a little nip that took a few months to go away.
As for expert opinion, I think anyone who gets frost bite more than once or twice should get their license revoked. An expert understands their limits and does not exceed them. If you think it's neat to post a collection of photos showing all the times you've been frost bitten, you're more eccentric than expert, in my opinion.
And you can definitely get frost bite above freezing. Frost bite depends on body temperature, not air temperature. Our bodies are close to 100 F. When tissue becomes significantly colder than this for a certain amount of time, it can become damaged. Usually our circulation keeps this from happening, but if it can't keep up and counteract whatever it is that is cooling the skin (temp, wind, moisture, capillary constriction in order to maintain core body temp), damage can happen. And it doesn't take very long for it to occur. On my frostnip mishap I covered up after just 10 minutes or so, but it was already too late (it probably didn't help that I didn't bring socks along, so my feet were still exposed to relatively cold temps even once inside my shoes).
Interestingly, people who habitually work with their hands in the cold, like fishermen, do develop a mechanism for flushing their hands' capillaries with warm blood every 7 to 10 minutes. So adaptation, to some degree, is possible.
And be warned that Zetti's advice about women and bare feet may not be generalizable. He married a Brazilian, and they're all crazy (but in a good kind of way).
Oh wait...you still believe that crap?
The only reason I run barefoot is because the ladies love it!
Who are these ladies of whom you speak? And where might I meet them? Even "my" lady thinks I'm a bit out there, though she participates in barefoot walking herself.
uh, yeah. bf hasn't helped me meet women. or has it and i'm so out of practice i didn't notice? hmm.
i just ran in sandals on the trail but the strap broke. since it was muddy i just pulled them off instead of fixing them. this was at the halfway point. no way to go but to continue on. my feet were cold already from not being able to run, damn hr training. my feet went numb the instant they hit the mud. it was freaking cold. my feet usually warm up about 2nd mile. this was about 4 in and no such luck. i even had a numb spot on my heel that felt like a rock in my shoe.
while the numb feet didn't feel good i feel better after running. so does my dog who is passed out now. love that. my feet have warmed up enough i can go shower, nearly two hours later. next time i have doubt i will suck it up and put on my tough gloves. i'd rather clean leather shoes than lose some toes, skin, or break something.
i just ran in sandals on the trail but the strap broke. since it was muddy i just pulled them off instead of fixing them. this was at the halfway point. no way to go but to continue on. my feet were cold already from not being able to run, damn hr training. my feet went numb the instant they hit the mud. it was freaking cold. my feet usually warm up about 2nd mile. this was about 4 in and no such luck. i even had a numb spot on my heel that felt like a rock in my shoe.
while the numb feet didn't feel good i feel better after running. so does my dog who is passed out now. love that. my feet have warmed up enough i can go shower, nearly two hours later. next time i have doubt i will suck it up and put on my tough gloves. i'd rather clean leather shoes than lose some toes, skin, or break something.
It is at this point that I usually quote Groucho Marx, but I don't want to scare the kiddies.
Sounds like to me you are on the right path. It's all about experience and exposure to the cold, as the winters go on you will start to notice new comfort in decreasing temperatures. It's normal, to me because it happens to me, to have certain toes more numb than others. For some reason my right heel goes numb before anything does, everyone is different. Having numb toes does not mean you have frost bite, but knowing how long you can run with numb toes can be tricky to find out. I read that if the tips of your toes look VERY white than it's time to end it and head home. Be safe about it, and this process takes time and years to figure out.
+1 on that. Trust me, if I ever get frostbite again, I'll hang my head in shame and get out of here. That's why I'm super cautious now, I don't mean to discourage winter barefoot running at all,
Yes, if they're very white or waxy, it's time to cover up. If they're still red, or just a little pale, you're OK.
Yah, I feel the same. It felt like a defeat to get frost nip. I saw some guy's web page two years ago where he had a whole collection of photos of his feet with blisters and frost bite. WTF? It's like he thought he was showing victory medals or something, but they seemed more like badges of shame or stupidity to me. He seemed incapable of learning from his mistakes. Reminded me of an American guy who visited our dojo in Japan for a few weeks and bloodied his hands pretty bad on the punching bag the first day. He then paraded his scabby knuckles like he was some kind of badass. Needless to say, he didn't last long.
Thanks all for the advice. Sounds like having some toes or other parts of your foot go numb is fairly normal. Just need to learn the signs of where your limits are. I am pretty sure on my aforementioned numb toe runs that they were red still, not white, but its been a little while now I can't be certain. But looks like we have a warmup coming, freezing still today but warming up into the 50's by friday! Guess I better get the skis on today while I still can! Was just talking to my folks, guess a week or so ago they hit -24F!
Hey...ALL the ladies have something to say...including "my" lady.
Its usually stuff like "aaawwwww.....grosss" or "Put on some shoes!!!" or "look how hairy they are" or "he looks like a hobbit" or "nasty!"
it all kind of blends together after awhile and all I hear are voices...what is really disturbing however is when i keep hearing the voices and I'm running trails...by myself..........with the voices......
