Change in training

[NickW]

So I've been talking to an old Army buddy of mine who used to be my workout buddy. He has since become a nutritionist and personal trainer. I've been having a hell of a time losing weight and have only lost about 11 pounds in the last year. After my last back surgery a little over two years ago I put on 40 pounds, so you can see why I'm concerned about losing the weight.

Anyhow, after talking to him and explaining about my diet and exercise he told me flat out to stop messing around with the longer distance stuff for now. I need to up the intensity of my workouts. He says I am doing a lot right with my diet and even some of my exercise, but now I need to change up my some of my exercise to lose the weight. He says I need to do high intensity workouts which leave me feeling like I am going to hurl afterwards (or as he said how he used to make me feel on our runs in the Army). He told me 30-60 minutes a day is all I probably need and I will start seeing results pretty fast.

Between my first and second back surgeries I lost 16 pounds in just a few months from training like this. I am a little nervous about doing this type of training though because I'm afraid of hurting my back. Even in the weight lifting I've been doing, I don't do the weight I could because I'm afraid of hurting myself. I am going to give it a try for a few weeks though and see what results I get. Hopefully I can get this weight off and then return to a more leisurely mix of runs.

 

[Abide]

To get a better picture, what are your stats, age, height, weight etc... and what does the current training routine look like? Are you taking creatine?

Honestly though when it comes to losing weight diet really is king. You can outwork a diet, but it is a lot of work. I have noticed that during the transition of workout routines you do tend to lose weight more rapidly but eventually that stabilizes once the effect wears off. Also once you introduce a new stimulus if you start undereating you will feel awful. And most of the weight lost just ends up being water and glycogen.

I am still trying to drop some more weight too, trying to get down into the 175 range. But it is tough especially when you get to that comfortable point and every pound after that seems impossible.

 

[NickW]

I am 5'7"ish and consistently at 199 pounds right now. My goal is to get back to mid 170's. I was 180 when I got out of the Army but I had 6% body fat at the time and had a lot of muscle. My current routine has kind of sucked the last week or so because of school (near end of term and lots of tests and studying for finals). I had been running 3-4 times a week from 3 to 13 miles at a time at a slow lower hr (not necessarily a Maf hr but not far off). I also was lifting weights, mid weight with high reps, 3-5 times a week. I do agree Abide that diet is really really important, but I also know someone as sedentary as me (outside of my working out) needs the right kind of exercise too. I am really watchful of my diet now a days and I can really tell when I eat the wrong kinds of foods or not enough food. It makes me feel terrible and weak.

 

[rickwhitelaw]

Nick. I agree with Abide about diet being king. What you eat, a lifestyle decision, not what diet you are going to try next. I disagree with your Army buddy. I believe that long runs burn a lot of fat. If you do short intense workouts, they are going to make you more hungry and have more cravings. Slow weight loss stays off, so have patience.

I've been through it. I lost 40+ pounds and it has stayed off. PM if you would like more discussion.

 

[NickW]

I agree about the diet, and I don't mean the next fad to come along. I try to eat as little processed crap as possible and eat more whole foods. I don't like many cooked veggies so most veggies I eat are raw too. Eventually I will have my own garden so then I will also control HOW my fruits and veggies are grown.

 

[Abide]

Well I think the best way to be successful in losing weight is consistency in your diet and training. As long as you are eating well, but not too much, and staying active you should be seeing improvements.

What has worked to get me in pretty good shape is doing a combination of the following long slow runs, conditioning and lifting heavy weights. However this is pretty time consuming and I almost always workout twice a day. High intensity training (I call it conditioning) like your friend is suggesting can be very succesful too, it keeps it interesting as well. However I think 30-60 minutes is too long. Whenever I do any conditioning it never lasts more than 20 minutes. Anything beyond that is extremely exhausting and the potential for injury increases in my experience. Do some strength work before hand and then roll into the HIT portion after that.

I also think maybe you should consider setting some goals in lieu/addition to losing weight. Things like body composition, strength, speed etc... if you are improving any of those it is highly likely you will be losing weight, or you might not be losing weight but you will transform your body.

Can you squat?

 

[Bare Lee]

Nick,

If you do end up trying more high intensity stuff, just be extremely cautious. There's a much greater chance for injury with that stuff than with slow, deliberate weight training, especially after two back surgeries. I would prioritize keeping your back healthy over all else. And it's strange your buddy told you to knock off the long runs. Almost everyone agrees that aerobic exercise is best for burning fat.

I agree more or less with what everyone else is saying about diet. If you're eating well and healthy, and exercising 30-60 minutes a day, it should come off slowly but surely. I've only been averaging 2 pounds a month or so since I started exercising consistently again about a year ago, but that's 25 pounds total. The rate is slowing down now, as with you, but like Abide said, part of that might be the fact that I'm converting fat to muscle rather than just burning it off. And in any case, even if I only average one pound a month from now on, I'll be close to my ideal weight in another year or so, and all without any really hardship in terms of feeling hungry during the day or denying myself the occasional ice cream bar or beer at night. Pure diet is brutal. I think exercise trumps diet, unless you're in a real hurry, and it regulates your appetite too. Once I did go half rations and lost 25 pounds in five weeks, while walking several hours a day and doing weights, but I was light-headed a good deal of the time -- not very conducive to studying or working. If I had a month with nothing to do, I might try something like that again, but it's just too hard to work at a desk if you're thinking about food all the time. If I had a more physically active job it might be doable.

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned, is to have your last meal 4-5 hours before you go to sleep. I read somewhere that your body is much better at converting food to fat when you're asleep, or at close to a complete state of rest.

 

[NickW]

I can't starve myself either Lee. I'm someone that if I'm hungry I eat. Can't help it really. That's why I keep the healthy options for snacks around, sugar snap peas, broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, etc... I've learned for me it's the type of calories I consume and not necessarily the amount of calories I consume that also makes me feel good or like crap. Natural foods make me feel better and keep me fuller longer and tend to have less calories. I do admit my kryptonite is pizza though. If I let myself I would eat it every day. If someone suggests pizza I have a hard time turning it down. Just typing about it is making my mouth water. Really though, I have never been able to lose weight just by changing diet. I don't know why and I get super jealous of people like my sister in law that don't change anything but diet and lose 20 pounds in two months. It actually kind of pisses me off, which I know it shouldn't, but I work really hard to lose weight and can't seem to lose much...

The 30-60 minutes Abide is not just running but also counting weights. My buddy wants me to change up my routine temporarily to try to get my body to start shedding weight again. I've lost two pounds in the last 3 months and have been plateaued at the same weight for about 4 months prior to that. I'll lose a pound and then gain two back and then lose a pound and gain one back and then lose a couple pounds only to gain a couple back again. It really is very frustrating.

Today I ran 3.12 miles with intervals during it. Wow... My legs were smoked at the end. I ran about a mile and a quarter slow and easy to warm up and then did 6 intervals of a minute on as hard as I could maintain at a constant pace, and then a minute walk, and so on. It took me about 3 intervals to figure out how to run fast and with a stroller and then on the 6th interval I gassed out about 10 seconds early although I kept trying to push myself. After the last interval I walked for a couple minutes and then ran nice and slowly for about a mile to cool down. The last mile run I could barely sustain a 14:30 pace. That right there shows me how out of balance I am. I may be able to run a slow thirteen miles but I cannot sprint or push the pace anymore. I can't even maintain my slow pace from the Jingle Bell Run 6 months ago. I will definitely have to take tomorrow off for running as this killed my calves. My legs feel more dead from this than they did last week when I ran 13.1 miles.

 

[Abide]

Go for it then, see if it works for you. I love doing conditioning work it feels awesome. And isn't the best diet and training plan the one you can stick too, or better yet enjoy?

BTW pizza, nachos and beer are my kryptonite. Especially a chicago style deep dish.

 

[NickW]

Just fell off the wagon with a Papa Murphys Chicago Style pizza the other day and nachos last night! Beer is one every night or every other night. Trying to cut down on that. Last nights nachos was just because I was tired and wanted something easy after school got out.

 

[Bare Lee]

Well, I did hills runs Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday, and a few hours ago I did my first official interval run, like you. It was a gas! I varied between slow and walking recoveries, and moderate to fast intervals. Man, it felt great to really let it all out, although I definitely felt it on my soles. I think there must be more push-off involved, and there's for sure greater impact while landing--so I gotta be sure not to overdo it. Although I've run barefoot before (20 years ago), I've never sprinted barefoot before, and haven't really run fast for most of my adulthood. I think the thing I like best about a faster pace is that my form really feels a lot smoother. Tomorrow or Friday I'll try a slower trail run. I'm loving the variety. I don't know if I'll ever settle on a perfect mix, but I'm pretty sure my days of running similar distances at a constant, slow pace are behind me. Long-slow, Hills, and Intervals -- I think I need them all. I guess it's similar to Abide's mix of heavy weights and conditioning, although I'm not quite ready to start the HIIT stuff yet. Building up my running and weights is enough right now for me.

Back to weight loss: It sounds like you know all you need to know about dieting and exercise, so it'll just be a matter of experimenting, and keeping the vices in check. If I can eventually be just 5-10 pounds over my ideal weight while also indulging a few caloric habits, I'd be quite happy. One final thought: I don't know how old you are, but I only began to put on weight once I got into my mid-thirties. I was in denial at first. I thought it was impossible for me. So maybe that's been part of your increasing difficulty in keeping the weight off too.

Finally, I just want to reiterate the importance of being extremely careful with your back. No amount of fitness is worth a lifetime of back pain.

 

[NickW]

Oh trust me Lee, I take my back very seriously. I don't mess around at all if I feel any sort of minimal problem start. About two and a half years a go before my second surgery I was only able to walk with the aid of a cane. Let me tell you that puts a whole different perspective on things. I am 34 by the way and I think my back problems started getting really bad when I was about 28-29 or so. It was right after I got out of the Army. I would agree that I, like you, like having the variety in the running. I love hills, sometimes, but I haven't really run fast for quite a long time. It seems I have forgotten how to as I felt awkward today doing the intervals at first. I am so used to slow easier runs. Surprisingly I am doing pretty good now despite hurting so bad (yet so good) right after my run. I did not run barefoot during my intervals, I threw on the minshoes for that as I don't want to step on something while sprinting pushing a stroller and then eat it while the stroller keeps going or tumbles over. I know that I could trip while in the shoes but it is much more likely that I will step on something I didn't see. Happens every day I run and after yesterdays metal sliver I got I just don't want to take the chance while sprinting with the stroller. What type of intervals were you doing Lee? By time or distance? Today was my first time using time for intervals while running (figured I did it on the bike why not with running). I used to way back when only do intervals at the track and always did them by distance.

 

[Bare Lee]

Oh trust me Lee, I take my back very seriously. I don't mess around at all if I feel any sort of minimal problem start. About two and a half years a go before my second surgery I was only able to walk with the aid of a cane. Let me tell you that puts a whole different perspective on things. I am 34 by the way and I think my back problems started getting really bad when I was about 28-29 or so. It was right after I got out of the Army. I would agree that I, like you, like having the variety in the running. I love hills, sometimes, but I haven't really run fast for quite a long time. It seems I have forgotten how to as I felt awkward today doing the intervals at first. I am so used to slow easier runs. Surprisingly I am doing pretty good now despite hurting so bad (yet so good) right after my run. I did not run barefoot during my intervals, I threw on the minshoes for that as I don't want to step on something while sprinting pushing a stroller and then eat it while the stroller keeps going or tumbles over. I know that I could trip while in the shoes but it is much more likely that I will step on something I didn't see. Happens every day I run and after yesterdays metal sliver I got I just don't want to take the chance while sprinting with the stroller. What type of intervals were you doing Lee? By time or distance? Today was my first time using time for intervals while running (figured I did it on the bike why not with running). I used to way back when only do intervals at the track and always did them by distance.

Cool. I kept hammering on the back thing because we men in particular have a hard time accepting new limits.

For the intervals I just ran until I got too tired to keep up the pace, and then either slowed down or walked until I caught my breath, and then went at it again. The total distance was 3.5 miles. Since I'm just starting with this, I don't feel any need to be strict about times or distance. Maybe I never will.

I don't know how you're running faster paces with a jogging stroller. The faster I run the more important my arms become. Hats off to you. I can see why you'd want shoes for that though. It's hard to see what's right in front of you with a stroller, and one stumble and the next generation could be flying solo.

 

[Abide]

Sounds like we are doing the same stuff Lee. I don't do any HIIT right now, only things like hill sprints, stairs, rowing, and occasionally I'll do burpees or broad jumps and sprint. I used to push a sled, flip tires, use kettlebells and sandbags but I have shelved that since I am running more now. I also only use a barbell for heavy lifting, I gave up on the crossfit stuff a while back.

Nick you can run repeat 400s, 800s 1600s, or do ladders or whatever makes you happy. They all suck in their own unique ways. Just build up slowly and initially take more rest if you need it. You can do fartleks too. I don't like time intervals though it's too easy to cheat and slow down so I tend to stick with distance.

 

[Bare Lee]

They all suck in their own unique ways.

Ha! That's what was going through my mind today when I was out of breath. I kept thinking about doing stairs in football, or wind sprints in basketball, or sit-ups in karate. I always hated it, but felt exhilarated afterwards. When you run fast, at some point your body tells you to f**king stop right now. You don't get that with long and slow runs. It's more like, "OK, that's pretty good, maybe a little bit more, but you could think about stopping pretty soon."

 

[NickW]

When you run fast, at some point your body tells you to f**king stop right now. You don't get that with long and slow runs. It's more like, "OK, that's pretty good, maybe a little bit more, but you could think about stopping pretty soon."

That's one of the things I used to like about running fast, I always felt like I had a good workout. Running these long slow runs, or just slow runs that I've been doing for most of the last year I almost always feel like I had more left in the tank (don't get me wrong, I love my long slow runs but I also like to feel like I've worked myself out). That's one thing I love about the gym, because I do several exercises in a row without breaks (like circuit training I guess) and I maximize my time in the gym (toddler doesn't like being there longer than 30-45 minutes) I always leave feeling like I worked myself pretty good.

 

[Lomad]

Just fell off the wagon with a Papa Murphys Chicago Style pizza the other day and nachos last night! Beer is one every night or every other night. Trying to cut down on that. Last nights nachos was just because I was tired and wanted something easy after school got out.

Beer does not count against your calorie intake. Fact.

 

[scedastic]

I am 5'7"ish and consistently at 199 pounds right now. My goal is to get back to mid 170's. I was 180 when I got out of the Army but I had 6% body fat at the time and had a lot of muscle. My current routine has kind of sucked the last week or so because of school (near end of term and lots of tests and studying for finals). I had been running 3-4 times a week from 3 to 13 miles at a time at a slow lower hr (not necessarily a Maf hr but not far off). I also was lifting weights, mid weight with high reps, 3-5 times a week. I do agree Abide that diet is really really important, but I also know someone as sedentary as me (outside of my working out) needs the right kind of exercise too. I am really watchful of my diet now a days and I can really tell when I eat the wrong kinds of foods or not enough food. It makes me feel terrible and weak.

A few ideas on being sedentary when not working out.............one way that I have found to keep from being totally sedentary (I'm a grad student and I HATE to sit still studying) was to use a tray (my husband made me a nice wood one for about $10, but you could also buy/find a breakfast tray) so that any table or desk where I was working could become a stand up desk. It relieved my back (no big back problems, but achy strain from sitting) big time, and as I shift my weight from foot to foot, or try to stand on one foot, or do little exercises while working, it at least feels like I'm doing something rather than being a potato, and my back feels much less strained, and I get a little less groggy and frustrated while studying.

 

[scedastic]

The other thing I want to send you is sympathy to a fellow adult student.
I'm a stress eater, and junk food is what I want when the stress of the end of a semester hits.
Hard habits to control; keeping the naughty foods far away is a wise choice you are making.

Good luck! Looks like you are making progress, so that's a good sign. Keep us posted.

 

[NickW]

The other thing I want to send you is sympathy to a fellow adult student.
I'm a stress eater, and junk food is what I want when the stress of the end of a semester hits.
Hard habits to control; keeping the naughty foods far away is a wise choice you are making.

Good luck! Looks like you are making progress, so that's a good sign. Keep us posted.

Normally school doesn't stress me out much, nothing like my last two jobs (customer service rep for printing company and Infantryman for the US Army), but this term I have pre-calculus and it's a required class. It's taking everything I have and I still don't know if I am going to pass it with at least a C. So far I am sitting at a solid D, so a bit stressed trying to cram to retake two tests from that class on Friday. I am so lucky he lets us retake a test if we got below a 70%. I am a fellow stress eater too and that is exactly why I keep the bad stuff mostly out of the house. It used to be my wife that had the problems if we had bad foods in the house, now if it's there by the time she gets home from work it's gone. Needless to say it's just better for me to not have that stuff in the house. It's also helpful for me to do the shopping AND do it while I am full. My wife goes shopping and I am screwed because she will buy all that yummy goodness that is so bad for my waistline.