Stupid Newbie Question #3

[ThomDavid]

Once again, I am willing to make myself look like a complete dolt in my pursuit of learning this barefoot thing. Please bear with me, and provide an answer (or, even just an opinion), if doing so won't make you look as stupid as I feel asking this question:

I've been methodically reading through these forums, hoping to glean tips that will help me make the transition from shod to sans-shod. And something that keeps coming up in people's comments is the concept of running "slowly."

Now, I am not anyone's idea of a fast runner. My last half-marathon (shod) was 2:19:59, during which I walked probably about ten minutes total (it was bloody hot that day). My (shod) long-run pace is around 9:30. On the barefoot runs I've been on, I notice that my pace is somewhere in the 8:30 - 9:00 pace, which, while faster than my (shod) LR pace, is still considered slow by many. I find that as I maintain a 180+ cadence, this is just the pace that I fall into, and it doesn't feel all that fast. If my feet weren't so tender, I feel as if I could continue at this cadence/pace for some miles. But I don't, since the operative word at this point is "not TMTS."

Finally, at the end of my runs, I find that I have beaten up my soles pretty well, and the balls and heels usually have developed a blister or two. So, I know that something is still amiss, likely form, but possibly speed as well.

So, the question is: what is "slow"? Am I running far too fast for my stage of development? and if so, how does one simultaneously develop a fast cadence while running slow? Again, it sure doesn't feel that an 8:30 pace is particularly fast, but given that I am still injuring myself (as in, blisters), should I be slowing down even more?

Sorry, folks, for asking a question that you've likely answered a thousand times before, but I haven't had time to go through the hundreds of pages of forums here on this site yet. I've been reading about the Maffetone method, and have been running with a HR monitor for years, but never at a pace that would keep my heart rate as slow as Dr. Phil suggests. In fact, I'd be barely running at all if I were to observe his 180-age formula. My typical training heart rate is between 136 - 144, which feels moderate to me.

Any suggestions, guidance, or direction is greatly appreciated.

 

[DNEchris]

Just to be the teaniest bit contentious here but I think Maffetone's heart rate theory is probably the best thing for beginning barefoot runners! 8.30 is PDQ for the early days. Take it easy and the form will correct itself.

Patience, Grasshopper, patience!

 

[migangelo]

ruh roh. you just opened pandora's box. you're going to get a lot of comments and opinions.

look at my tag line and you'll see where i stand. ya, maf is frustrating as hell. come race time though i'm seeing the benefits.

 

[Lomad]

I think you're going to fast for a newbie. If you're getting a lot of blisters, excessive friction is a possible culprit. Newbie barefoot runner+excessive speed=friction and blisters.

 

[rbondi]

I don't know what you are running on, chip and seal or gravel will force you to slow down and improve your form. Form is the key. You are not going too fast, you would probably get blisters at any speed if your form is off. If you want to run slower at a higher cadence, take shorter strides.

 

[JosephTree]

I'm with the concensus here, that you are probably running beyond your feet's capacity right now. That is definitely subject to change, maybe pretty soon, but for now, the blisters are telling you very clearly to back off a bit. Chris knows for running, so give his advice good attention. Also, Dr. Maff definitely know for running, too, and, awkward as it might feel to start, your bod will find it's aerobic optimum performance if you follow the true path.

 

[jldeleon]

Get a metronome and set it to 180.

 

[jldeleon]

ruh roh.

I am not sure how useful someone's advice, who thinks they are Scooby Doo, is...just say'in.

 

[Sid]

Just to be the teaniest bit contentious here but I think Maffetone's heart rate theory is probably the best thing for beginning barefoot runners!

Been reading about building the aerobic base. Sounds like a good idea. Need to get some new batteries for the old heart rate monitor and see where HR is at.

Apparently there are some different strategies after building the base, as shown in the link. What happens in MAF after building the base?

 

[ThomDavid]

Get a metronome and set it to 180.

Have been using a metronome app on my phone the past couple of runs, and that's helped me settle on a good cadence. But, again, though my cadence is where it should be, I'm probably going too fast, as evidenced by blistering on my soles (and my form deficiencies likely don't help either).

What's sort of knocking me for a loop right now is this 180 - age concept to ascertain my max aerobic heart rate. At my age that puts me at 125 -- fully 20 beats lower than where I typically train. Training at this low rate -- assuming I CAN do so -- just seems so counter-intuitive.

Still, you MAF-ers (sorry - that sounds bad) and Dr M clearly know more about this than I, so I guess I have to take a leap of faith (vs my usual approach, which is jumping to conclusions). Tomorrow is a scheduled run day, so I'll set my phone to 180, my HRM to 125, take very short steps, and see what happens.

Thanks to you all for your patience. This is like learning a whole new language when you only just learned to talk.

 

[kozz]

If you're getting blisters, let them heal up, and then run again. Soon your skin will be thick and won't get blisters anymore.

The idea that you can run without friction is nonsense. Thick skin is an adaptation to friction. If you run extra slow to reduce friction, you'll only adapt more slowly.

 

[devilnuts]

I find that running slow or fast doesn't really cause friction...it causes different kind of friction for me. Seriously. I can feel the different points on my toes where I create contact with the ground when I run slowly (more on the pad of the toe) to when I am running faster...well, faster for me...hahaha (more towards the tip of the toe).

As for MAF...eh, I tried it once and I will probably do it a couple more times. But it was really difficult for me to run slowly enough to maintain my MAF HR. I felt like I was working my muscles slightly differently. Like I had said, my usual way of working on endurance is to get my recovery time down. I used to do that taking a minute or two every mile on longer runs to slow my pace down and let my HR drop. Lately I have been using only the intersections that I get caught at with a red light. Then I get a 30 second rest and my HR should plummet. According to my HR monitor, my HR goes up almost immediately upon starting a run and I can actually tell where on the run I was by looking at just a graph of my HR. At the first few stops, my HR declines quickly and then rises quickly again as I resume running. But as the run enters miles 5, 6, 7, etc. the drop-off isn't as pronounced and I'm not recovering quickly enough. So that is what I am working on for my endurance. About 6 months ago my HR would only drop significantly for the first few intersections...now it is taking longer to get to where it doesn't come back down. So it seems to be working for me. I actually got the idea from when I ran CC in HS. The coach would make us run hills and once everyone got to the top, we'd check HR. Mine was always low and he would accuse me of not putting forth enough effort. I was middle of the pack, so I wasn't getting a whole lot of time to recover, but it turned out to be enough. The only way I could prove that I was exerting enough was to do my own HR check within 15 seconds of reaching the top...then my numbers "matched" everyone else's. I wasn't the fastest, but I could run those hills all day long like that. So I made a connection between recovery speed and endurance. I decided to apply it to my distance running. Again, it works for me and your result may vary...haha.

 

[DNEchris]

What's sort of knocking me for a loop right now is this 180 - age concept to ascertain my max aerobic heart rate. At my age that puts me at 125 -- fully 20 beats lower than where I typically train. Training at this low rate -- assuming I CAN do so -- just seems so counter-intuitive.

I'm two years older than you and have done a couple of 20 mile runs over the last week:
The first at 131 AHR at an 8.15 pace and yesterday at 123 (right on raw MAF pace) at 8.49. I also did 8 miles at 6.50 pace mid-week at 145 AHR.

Patience, Grasshopper, patience!

 

[DNEchris]

If you're getting blisters, let them heal up, and then run again.

So far, so good.

Soon your skin will be thick and won't get blisters anymore.

Not sure I agree if your form is less than ideal.

The idea that you can run without friction is nonsense.

Correct. But you want the friction to be helping - not harming. Lift, then place, the foot - I can't recommend skidding over the surface.

Thick skin is an adaptation to friction.

Thickened skin is an adaptation to change of use.

If you run extra slow to reduce friction, you'll only adapt more slowly.

But with better form and a higher skill level. This is meant to be fun!

 

[BFwillie_g]

Have been using a metronome app on my phone the past couple of runs, and that's helped me settle on a good cadence. But, again, though my cadence is where it should be, I'm probably going too fast, .

possibly because you unconsciously bumped up your pace when you increased your cadence?

 

[ThomDavid]

I'm two years older than you and have done a couple of 20 mile runs over the last week:
The first at 131 AHR at an 8.15 pace and yesterday at 123 (right on raw MAF pace) at 8.49. I also did 8 miles at 6.50 pace mid-week at 145 AHR.

Patience, Grasshopper, patience!

Holy mother of pearl. OK, Chris, may I ask how long you've been running bf? And then, how long you've been practicing the MAF technique? I'm not trying to impose a time deadline on my own progress, but just to help me with some perspective on the process. I know that no two people are alike, so I won't assess my progress in relation to yours, but for someone just starting out, it is helpful to know.

Patience, never one of my defining characteristics, is almost my mantra these days, and I find myself repeating that word even during non-running moments. The odd thing is that ever since I began running way back when, I've always considered the act a spiritual one, which is why I don't care for listening to music or other distractions when I run. While the physical benefits carried over into my non-running activities, that spiritual part didn't seem to have much of an effect otherwise. But learning this barefoot thing? I'm seeing all sorts of "spiritual spillover," not the least of which is this patience thing.

Old dog, meet new trick.

Thanks, ladies and gents.

 

[DNEchris]

Chris, may I ask how long you've been running bf? And then, how long you've been practicing the MAF technique?

I've been running barefoot since the beginning of April 2010 but I'd started to acquire the technique about 10 months before that in VFF.

I think I've been using MAF(ish) training (I don't really do 'training') for about 18 months, maybe a little longer. When I started I noticed that an AHR of about 140 had me at an 8 min/mile pace on my runs to and from work and I was pretty happy with that. Now I'm running at an AHR of 121 for an 8.06 pace on my 7 mile run home - the first 2 miles of that are up Madison Avenue in Manhattan and typically take 18+ minutes because of all the pedestrians.

Just keep it fun and you'll be fine!

My running mantra is "Easy, easy, take it easy" with a footfall for each syllable. It works like a charm!

 

[Bare Lee]

Just my two cents: but I would just give your soles more time to adapt, like Kozz says. So run less distance but maintain the pace you're comfortable with and ignore all the other stuff. If you're running barefoot the feedback from the friction should help you optimize your form eventually. Do the Maff method if you like it, throw it out the window if you don't. Just as many people recommend speedwork for getting fast. There's always two sides to any sort of training protocol that's floating out there (Maff versus speedwork, 180 cadence versus unconscious cadence, blah, blah, blah), so in the end you gotta do what feels right for you and makes you want to keep running, because consistency is the only universal factor in getting better/faster/having more endurance. I'm making rapid improvements right now in both pace and distance by just running, because I'm able to run more consistently now that I've figured out what was causing my top-of-the-foot-pain, which was holding me back for the better part of a year.

Plus, for me, I'm pretty confident I have better form when running faster. I feel much smoother between 8mm and 9mm pace. So it wouldn't make sense for me to slow down my pace to consciously work on my form when I can achieve the same results effortlessly by just running faster. I've also learned to avoid running so far that fatigue sets in. That's when my form really starts to fall apart, so the aerobic benefit of a longer run is canceled, for me, by the poor habits I may incur and the greater risk of injury. I don't like to run more than the last mile in a fatigued state.

In the end, both the just run approach and the rules-based approach (180-cadence, 10% weekly increase, lift your feet, nose-breathe, bend your knees, low HR) have validity, it just depends on the runner. You have to figure out what sort of runner you are, but everyone passes through a period of sole-conditioning both when they take up BFR and whenever they increase pace or distance or expand their repertoire of surface types.

Hmmn, I guess that was more than two cents' worth.

 

[DNEchris]

Just my two cents: ...................................Hmmn, I guess that was more than two cents' worth.

Ah, but good value

 

[migangelo]

lee, maf method does include speedwork. it's not one versus the other.