Optimal strength training for runners

Discussion in 'Health, Nutrition, Injuries & Medical Conditions' started by Abide, Oct 23, 2012.

  1. Abide Barefooters
    1. Arizona -...

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  2. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
    1. Minnesota

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    Well, my 5K goal is 24 minutes, or about 8mm pace. I think that's a pretty doable tempo pace. Last summer I ran aerobically a little under 9mm pace for six miles. So I should be able to run a half mary at a little over 9mm pace, if I can run consistently for a year or so.

    I still haven't got back to my running routine though. My stubbed toe feels pretty good, but I think walking/running with my foot inverted when it was still a little painful has set off some PF-like symptoms, so the last few days I've been massaging the arch and stretching the toes. It's just about 100% now. Hopefully I can get in three miles tomorrow. It's killing me not to run. I'm glad the ST is going well. With this last winter's lay off and now the stubbed toe, my running has been really sporadic for six months and I feel like I've lost almost all the conditioning I had built up by the end of last fall.

    For the Deadlift, I always tense up my body before the actual lift. When I'm close to max weight, I kind of pump up and down as a warm-up, tensing and then releasing by raising my butt while holding the bar. I also like to get down into a full squat with my hands on the bar and tense from there. I also stretch out the hammies some, and move my hips side to side while still holding the bar. I don't fuck around with the deadlift. I make sure everything's set before I try to lift it. I'm gaining more confidence that I can push my lower back without screwing it up, but I'm still being very cautious. The next 90 pounds are going to be a hard slog. I may start doing 2x5x225 deadlifts on my power clean days just to grease the groove, so it's not such a shock to the system on Mondays. Thanks for reminding me about Rippoetoe, I'll have to read through his instructions before my next deadlift session. I didn't quite understand step four on that link.

    Overall, I can feel my body getting stronger. It's quite palpable. I think doing two back days (rows & pulldowns) is really helping. But my running and limberness have really fallen off the last few months.

    Good point about the Hollywood drugs and diet. I don't aspire to a super ripped physique, but I do like the idea of being super fit like that. I know from my brief time pretending to be a model that you need a lot of dedication to get those last percentages of body fat off. The body resists it at every turn. But I do want to get in more conditioning work once my strength goals have been met. I'm prioritizing the strength goals because I'm at an age now where the muscle mass is supposed to start decreasing 1-2 percent per year unless you do something about it. So the idea is get up to decent intermediate weights while I still can, and then try to maintain them for as long as possible. The conditioning work can be done later.

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  3. Abide Barefooters
    1. Arizona -...

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    Here is the video that was related to it. I am pretty sure step 4 comes at the 38 second mark. There is a definite lifting of the chest at that point.



    Usually when I start to get sloppy it is on my 3rd rep when my grip starts to weaken. I am going to start resetting after each one every time.

    Yeah same here with the running, its been intermittent and not routine. I just havent had as much motivation to go out for a run lately? Its strange how that works. Maybe we need to talk more about running plans and drop the strength talk? Maybe 24 minutes is more reasonable too, or a 7:30 pace one?
  4. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
    1. Minnesota

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    Yah, that looks about the way I do it, I think.

    ST is more complicated and has more options than running, so I've been enjoying this thread a lot, and have learned a lot. I'm really happy with my current routine, which is the product of all the discussions we've all been having on this thread, and reading the articles on everyone's links.

    For running, there's basically just aerobic, tempo, and hills or speedwork. In an ideal weekly routine, I do one day of tempo, one day of speed or hills, and one long run. The rest of the time, I'm adding volume through my daily one-mile run-commutes, with the possibility of making one-way a 5K run. If I'm doing ST M-W-F, then Tuesday and Thursday are my tempo/speed days, about 5-6 miles each and Saturday or Sunday is my long run day, about 8-12 miles. Alternatively, I could run 5K every weekday, and just make Tuesday and Thursday's 5Ks either a tempo or fartlek day, with Monday, Wednesday, and Friday's 5Ks run at aerobic pace. One way or the other, the weekly goal is to have it all add up to around 25-30 miles. I don't race, so I don't have any goals besides just increasing my overall running fitness. I think my plan is the best way for me to do that. The problem is that a lot of the time it's easiest to just run aerobic and forget the tempo and speed work. I find tempo runs the most challenging actually, because it requires constant mental effort not to slow down to a comfortable aerobic pace. But the feeling at the end of a good tempo run is perhaps the most rewarding.

    What are your ideas?

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  5. Abide Barefooters
    1. Arizona -...

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    Honestly I don't have many concrete ideas about running? The one thing that has been on my mid is how good I feel the less I run. So the aerobic MAF style running has been kind of catching my attention lately. I made a pact with myself to keep my running distances at/or shorter than a half mary for a while and spend more of my weekend with the kids. I figure 10 years from now the kids won't wanna hang on the weekends and I will have plenty of free time to do longer distances then.

    I have been enjoying playing soccer with the kids even though I don't know anything about the game. Its great physical activity. And the bike commutes to work fill in pretty well with the aerobic work.

    So yeah not really into running or thinking about it much. Its nice to just run whenever I feel like. Maybe that will be my plan.
  6. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
    1. Minnesota

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    Yah, all my free time is spent with the family. Most of the time, my long run will be 90-120 minutes, and done before everyone wakes up on a weekend morning. During the week, the goal is to get in roughly one hour of exercise per day, either ST or running. The run-commutes don't really count. I need to start biking to pick up my son from day care more too, but it seems like there's always an errand along the way.

    I think for overall conditioning and athleticism, soccer, basketball, and hockey are the big three team sports. When I was living in Mozambique I really wished I was better at soccer so that I could play it on the beach more on the weekends. But it was too embarrassing playing it with guys who grew up playing it. I got my kids a soccer net a few weeks ago, but so far they've shown limited interest. I guess Europeans are getting pretty excited about the World Cup, right? I always got into it when I was abroad. In America, it kind of loses its allure. The Vikings are trying to bring a team here, to play in their new stadium, so hopefully my kids will be inspired by that. I kind of wonder about hitting the ball with your head though. That can't be too good for the brain long-term.

    Hey just tried some pull-ups with the resistant band. I need a heavier one I think. You ever done weights with resistance bands or chains?

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  7. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
    1. Minnesota

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    Looked into it a bit, and it looks like the force I use on my lat pulldowns are only half the load, because the load is only traveling half the distance that my pulldown bar is:

    [IMG]

    "Compound pulley: Load (R) moves half distance, cable is pulled so the effort (F) is halved. Opposite end of cable is stationary so compound pulley rotates and travels upward with load." (from http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/OtherMachines.html)

    Here's a pic of my set-up, from the seller's craigslist posting (I would never paint a wall red):

    [IMG]

    The strange thing is I thought the cable machine I was using had the same set-up as my new power rack/latpulldown, but I could do considerably less on it. It's now in storage, so I can't take another look at it for a while.

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  8. Sid Barefooters

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    I'm guessing the the pulleys are arranged that way to allow for the low cable. That kind of stinks though, since you have to have double the weight.

    By the way, Exrx is blocking your hotlinking again.
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  9. Abide Barefooters
    1. Arizona -...

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    Yeah they love the world cup over here, its like the NFL playoffs back home. I have some friends that play semi competitively but they tend to get injured frequently at their games so I am cool with just playing with the kids. Then I can play barefoot and it makes it a little more fair. And I kind of like that trail ball Paul has been posting about. I know the Tarahumara did somethign like that originally but I might take the samll soccer ball out for a run with me.
    I have to say its kind of funny what happens when you introduce and American football to a group of kids out here, they go nuts. Must be the novelty?

    I have a pair of bands that I bought with the intention of using but I never really have. I sometimes use them for warming up and stuff, but not often. Can you double it up on the pull ups? Also can you do chin ups?

    Sometimes the friction on the sleeve adds some weight to those it could be why you could do less on the other one.
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  10. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
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    Yah, we'll see if the resistance bands help. I got a heavier one coming next week. I'm kinda skeptical about using them on squats or deadlifts and other lifts. Could waste time messing around and it seems best just to add more weight anyways.

    Yesterday I spent more time messing around with my new set-up. Kind of like putting lipstick on a pig, but I think it's worth adapting my cheap Stamina rack/cable machine cuz it can potentially do everything I need with just a 3x3' footprint. I got the dip thing assembled and it looks like it will work great. Then I set to adapting my joist-mounted chin-up bar to the stamina rack.
    • [IMG]
    I think I can keep it in place just by using some bolts as pegs attaching the joist supports into holes I drilled in the top beam of the Stamina rack, kind of like a door-mounted chin-up bar. It will also serve as a shoulder-width spacer for my suspension straps when I do stuff with those. But once again, messing around with this stuff made me miss another workout. Hopefully today I can finally give the thing a test run as a squat rack and bench rack and do some dips. I'm also toying with the idea of doing some gymnastics-style dips with my suspension straps, substituting for rings.

    I'm thinking more and more that the old cable machine didn't offer any mechanical advantage. I'm remembering now how the load did travel quite a bit, and the row function was tied into the cables differently, because the whole thing had to go through a pec deck too. I had removed the pec deck seat so that I could get a full ROM on the pulldowns. I used to do 160 for the chin-ups x 5-8 reps, which is probably my true capacity. So if I use a resistance band rated up to 80 lbs on bodyweight chin-ups, that should be roughly equivalent, right, given that I weight 240 now?

    I think it's doubtful the friction on the pulleys could make more than a 2-5 pound difference. Those pulleys were crap, though, no doubt. My new set-up is better, especially now that I got washers putting the pulleys at close to dead center. Still, the sleeve of the load that wraps around the back vertical post is pretty crappy and lists to one side. It would be nice to replace that at some point, but finding an exact match would be difficult.

    I think it's more to include the row function down below, or is that what you meant? I might be able to figure out a way to get direct weight on the pulldowns though, by switching the two cables so that the shorter one is up on top, and then with a carabiner hook up the load with a chain to that shorter cable when I don't need to use the row cable. We'll see.

    Damn ExRx, doesn't open linking come with open access?

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  11. Sid Barefooters

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  12. mokaman Chapter Presidents
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    I started adding ST back in 2 days a week...trying HIT style 1 upper body and 1 lower body workout per week and I'll do a MAF test once a month to see how it affects my aerobic pace. My goal is to gain 10 pounds of muscle and lose maybe 5 pounds of fat and see if i can maintain my running fitness. I'll start adding in 50 - 100 yards sprint workout once a week for overall health benefits too.

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  13. Sid Barefooters

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    I found that the DB clean and press was a bit tricky using both hands. So, it's back to one hand, but using the other hand for assistance, seems to help maintain the appropriate form for me.
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  14. Sid Barefooters

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  15. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
    1. Minnesota

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    Finished modifying my new/used Stamina half-rack/cable station. After building a wooden base to elevate the thing, so that the garage door would open all the way, I found out the joist-mounted chin-up bar bolted to the top beam was just high enough for me to clear my head while unracking the bar during squats, so it'll be bolted there permanently now.

    Then I found out the dip station I bought for 40 dollars, which is supposed to hang from the bar of a door-frame chin-up bar or a racked barbell, is a piece of crap. As soon as I hoisted myself up onto it, I could feel the parallel bars begin to sag. The metal by one of the vertical bolts connecting two of the tubes together had begun to tear. It's supposed to be rated up to 250lbs, and I'm about 240-245 these days, but I kinda wonder how long it would last even if I got down to 200-210.

    Nonetheless, the design concept seems like a winner. I like being able to detach it and store in the corner without taking up as much space as a dedicated dip station would. So later today I'll pick up some 1" plumbing pipe to make a close approximation myself, probably for less money. Instead of hanging from a barbell, I'll add a second bar and use t-joints to connect it to the bottom bar with the parallel bars coming out of two more t-joints there. Basically two "L"s with two, three-foot bars running cross-wise, one in the rack, and the lower one against the rack's vertical posts.

    Or maybe just my use suspension straps for the dips? http://jasonferruggia.com/how-to-build-muscle-olympic-style/
    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online...strap_exercises_for_serious_upper_body_muscle

    I tried to reverse the cables so that I could pull down a full load, but this rendered the row function inoperable, so I'll just have to load up the cables with up to 320-400 pounds of plates when I do my pull downs. Gotta get better at doing real chin-ups/pull-ups. I got some more heavy-duty bands arriving to help assist me while I'm building up to body weight chin-ups. I can barely do one rep unassisted. Hopefully I find some other useful things to do with the bands too.

    Anyway, very happy with this craigslist purchase and I can hardly wait to get in a full week of lifting on it.
    Look forward to hearing how it goes. The little bit I've looked into it, there's no reason ST should affect one's aerobic pace, although aerobic exercise may adversely affect one's ST, but probably only at a competitive level. What sorts of exercises will you be doing?
    Ha, we talked about jumping rope a long time ago, didn't we Sid? I gotta get to it.

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  16. Abide Barefooters
    1. Arizona -...

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    It's definitely an option I leave my rings attached to my rack all the time and have been considering doing dips with them. They don't get in the way much and I do 10-20 ring pushups for a quick warmup now and I like them better than regular pushups. Hopefully the dips won't bother my shoulder. I love the pull up/dip combo. I am kind of surprised that the tubes are bending you would think, due to liabilty issues, a company wouldn't make something that was at least capable of handling double the recommended weight?

    Put up a pic when you get a chance. I am curious to see the set up its hard fo rme to visualize.

    Been thinking about switching lifting from the mornings to evenings. Maybe I'll try it out this week a little. It's been taking a long time to get warmed up in the morning and I am kind of feeling the urge to start running a little more regularly.
  17. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
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    Yah, a few reviews said it was a bit wobbly, and the tubing was noticeably lighter than that of the doorframe chin-up bar I just got, and the bolts didn't connect the pieces as tightly, so I was a little leery when hoisting myself up. Oh well, full refund from Amazon, so just the hassle of assembling, disassembling and dropping it off. Strange though, as you say, to make a piece of workout equipment so flimsy with potential liabilities in view.

    Anyway, looking to incorporate a little more suspension strap work now that it will be easier to rig the straps quickly and with more space around them. With my old set-up the straps had to hang from a single point. Now I can have them hanging from two shoulder-width points via the joist mounts of my chin-up bar.

    Speaking of chin-ups I read somewhere that it's pointless to do biceps work until you can do 10-12 body-weight chin-ups. That seems about right. As in all things, get the big, compound lifts down first, then do the assistance exercises, and biceps curls probably should be properly considered assistance to chin-ups or other pulls, right?

    OK, I'll snap a few pics in a day or two. Even if I end up doing dips with the suspension straps, it might be nice to have dip bars as well, for variation, so I'll get to that and then also maybe add some short, vertical plate stacking bars on the sides of the cable loader. I don't see any real point in getting a stand for the Olympic grip plates though. With the rubberized grip it's pretty easy just to pull them off a stack on the floor, and it takes less space.

    The only thing I would change so far is to have the rack's vertical posts more Olympic width. They're three feet apart, which is OK considering I'm trying to do my presses with a narrower grip, and I can still grip it comfortably outside of the posts for squats.

    Yah, for me, running in the morning and lifting in the afternoon works best. Or alternating afternoon lifting and running every other day. It's just real hard for me to get up for a high intensity (fitness) activity first thing in the morning. Ideally I would probably lift mid-morning, with a couple of meals in me and testosterone levels still close to peak, but it's hard to schedule that.

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  18. Sid Barefooters

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    Tweaked something during yesterday's squats. :( Possible didn't warm up enough and/or got lazy with form.

    I can't really identify a specific sore spot. It's unlike anything that I've had before, and has me leaning at the hip towards the right side. This makes a lot of things very challenging. I can somewhat compensate by tensing the left side.

    I'm sure I'll be okay in a few days.
  19. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
    1. Minnesota

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    Hope you heal up quickly. I sometimes get little muscle pulls when I'm getting back into shape, around my shoulder blade. If it's a muscle tear, of course, stretching won't help, but if it's a tendon or ligament deal, a little mobility work might help.

    Messed around way too long with the dip station yesterday, both at the store and at home. Made something that would be supported by a bar on the rack and two legs on the ground, but it will take up too much space when not in use, so now I've come up with a new design that will be fully supported by the rack, closer to the design of the shoddy dip bar I bought online (btw, there were lots of bad reviews, don't know how I ignored them--I guess I figured it'd be the same quality as the doorframe chin-up bar I got a day or two before). Need to go back to Menards (a kind of Midwestern Home Depot) for more elbows, t-joints, and a few unions. This thing is getting expensive (almost as much as this: http://smile.amazon.com/Ultimate-Body-Press-Dip-Stand/dp/B000ICHPIK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1403007514&sr=8-2&keywords=dip station), but it will be super sturdy and won't take up too much space hanging from the wall when not in use. Pics tomorrow or the next day of the whole set-up.

    With all the messing around with the pipes, just had time for deadlifts. Will do the DL assistance stuff today and the upper body pulls. Gonna try inverted rows for the second time.

    Just ran six miles down by the river, saw a couple of deer. Beautiful overcast dim, not too hot yet, and lots of birds. My left big toe still feels a little stiff, but runnable.

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  20. Abide Barefooters
    1. Arizona -...

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    I love amazon for that reason alone, I always pay attention to the reviews. If you have two points to attach there is no reason to get rings.

    Eh I don't like absolutes like that. They are similar but still different and besides why is that the magic number? I bet you a decently strong dude at 150lb can whip out significantly more chin-ups regardless of back and bicep strength than a 225lb guy. Pull ups are primarily affected by bodyweight and then genetic levers and then strength in my opinion. I bet most of the strongest power lifters would not be able to complete 10 chins, but to a gymnast thats a joke.
    I don't do curls at all, but if you enjoy them I don't see the harm in doing them unless you are doing them in lieu of pull down/up work and expecting the same results.

    Yeah I find mornings are the easiest for me to be consistent, there are too many excuses to not workout at night. Maybe I'll just try running every morning to get warmed up a little more before lifting. I'm tweaking my weekly exertion a little. I am finding the heavy DL's to be too much, so I am going to focus on one heavy lift and keep the other ones easy. I think that will help some and keep the workouts shorter in general. When you really look at it it keeps falling back to a 5/3/1 syle program. I might jump on that one once I am done.

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