Training on an Empty Stomach

[BFwillie_g]

I'm using the popular MAF definition; Aerobic = primarily glycogen-fueled, anaerobic = primarily fat-fueled. .

Somewhere in there, Maffetone describes the process whereby a little "charge" of glycogen is necessary to "spark" the burning of the fat (I made up the cool terms myself because I forget how he really describes it). Basically, though, fat doesn't burn on its own, it needs a little fuel to get it going. ... Somehow or other ... I do get lost when I start trying to understand this on the molecular level.

 

[migangelo]

ok i then forgot to mention i started my run with about 12oz of iskiate. i drained the bladder then went for my "run".

jen, if you stopped talking you may have more energy to run.

 

[jldeleon]

 

[KiwiRunning]

Although i quite often train on an empty stomach, Its only on my shortest runs, those under 60 mins that i dont drink at all, I allways start my runs in a very well hydrated state. Normally i drink every 20 mins (since this matches roughly the drink station spacing here) the actual quatity depends on how hot it is and how much im sweating, If its cool ill just take a small mouthfull, when its warmer, more. I dont overhydrate on my runs, but im also concious not to get too dehydrated, i dont really see any benifit to it.

 

[pilotrunner]

Less than 6 miles, I don't take drinks w/me or eat prior.

Over 6 miles, I eat a small bowl of whole-grain cereal and take liquids with me while I run.

I start well hydrated for both.

For me, if I deviate from either, I have issues...

 

[Barefoot Padre]

Just want to share my own experience on this interesting topic. I've been following the "Warrior Diet' for the last three years and this means that I only eat at night. I just drink coffee in the morning and have some fruit (orange or banana) at noon time. I have no problem doing ultra run/walk on a fasted state - I do it all the time and I can't run if I eat (I feel sluggish and drowsy if I do). I did this when I ran/walked 400 km (wearing shoes) in 9 days (from Davao-Iligan in the Philippines). When I ran/walked barefoot on the Camino de Santiago (from the French Pyrenees to Santiago de Compostela in Spain - 800 km in 27 days) I usually did it on an empty stomach (fasting). Last year, I ran/walked solo & unsupported (shod this time) across the Philippines (Davao-Aparri, 2,060 km in 57 days) and did it on an empty stomache - I just ate at night. Nowadays, I don't do much ultra-running but I continue my "warrior diet." I usually run barefoot to my office (8 km away) and come back in the afternoon and then have a good dinner which will be my fuel the following day. During the Holy Week, I usually fast for one week (from Palm Sunday to Easter Sunday) and I continue doing my regular runs. Ori Hoffmekler, the author of the book "Warrior Diet" has an interesting theory. He believes that when we fast or undereat during the day, our body shifts to a survival mode and makes use of our fat deposits as fuel (instead of glycogen). Primitive humans were nocturnal eaters and the human body is capable of physical activity even with less or no food. It seems that the Warrior Diet works for me. By the way, I also avoid sugar and refined carborhydrates when I eat - mostly protein (fish, eggs) and vegies.

 

[scedastic]

k, so Jason, I'm just training for.....whatever, but maybe someday, a really long one.
I ran my longest run today, about 13.4 miles, on about 14 oz. coffee (with about 1.5 tsp sugar in it) and no other fluids. The weather was nice. I felt fine, before during and after.
Is a run of this short a length beneficial to do in this way?
What about muscle recovery? Am I making for sore muscles by not eating that much afterwards, either?
(I like to eat more late in the day, but can adapt).
Does it make sense to train this way all the time?
BTW, there is no way I'm going to do gels unless I feel like there is some real performance benefit (yick! I prefer real food).
But if there is a performance benefit on shorter runs to consuming calories before hand (<15 miles) should I?
Or should I only start fasting for longer runs if (when) I get to that point?

finally, if I have sugar in my coffee before I run, does that ruin the effect?

 

[Last Place Jason]

k, so Jason, I'm just training for.....whatever, but maybe someday, a really long one.
I ran my longest run today, about 13.4 miles, on about 14 oz. coffee (with about 1.5 tsp sugar in it) and no other fluids. The weather was nice. I felt fine, before during and after.
Is a run of this short a length beneficial to do in this way? Probably not.
What about muscle recovery? Am I making for sore muscles by not eating that much afterwards, either? Maybe. Maybe not.
(I like to eat more late in the day, but can adapt).
Does it make sense to train this way all the time?Probably not. It's rarely a good idea to be a one trick pony.
BTW, there is no way I'm going to do gels unless I feel like there is some real performance benefit (yick! I prefer real food). I only use gels for racing due to convenience.
But if there is a performance benefit on shorter runs to consuming calories before hand (<15 miles) should I? See #3.
Or should I only start fasting for longer runs if (when) I get to that point? See #5.

finally, if I have sugar in my coffee before I run, does that ruin the effect? Probably.

 

[DNEchris]

Tough TRT Jason?

 

[BFwillie_g]

finally, if I have sugar in my coffee before I run, does that ruin the effect?

I'd say no to that one. A little refined white sugar is gone in a flash, literally. I think it's conceivable that a sugar spike could even accelerate the process (but this is all very uncharted waters here, hence Jason's wobbly answers - It's up to you to put in the work and report your findings, add to the body of evidence and all that).

Just had a nice 2hr run in the hot sun with Leni the Wunderhund. Had had a couple chocolate chip cookies and black coffee at "work" at around 9 o'clock, then goofed off and ran at 10.30, nothing to drink or eat along the way. Felt good the whole way. Sprinted the final 200m, to the point where my legs kind of turned to jelly. Recovered quickly. Eating a big mixed salad now. Leni ate chicken (and also had a cold bath to cool down).

 

[KiwiRunning]

I'd say no to that one. A little refined white sugar is gone in a flash, literally.

Actually interestingly enough Refined sugar isnt actually absorbed as fast as most think It has a pretty moderate GI see http://www.carbs-information.com/gi-value-sugar.htm

Just had a nice 2hr run in the hot sun with Leni the Wunderhund. Had had a couple chocolate chip cookies and black coffee at "work" at around 9 o'clock, then goofed off and ran at 10.30, nothing to drink or eat along the way. Felt good the whole way. Sprinted the final 200m, to the point where my legs kind of turned to jelly. Recovered quickly. Eating a big mixed salad now. Leni ate chicken (and also had a cold bath to cool down).

Wille that sounds like a much better way to spend a monday morning than in the office, specially if youve got the same 'herrlichen' weather we have.

 

[BFwillie_g]

Actually interestingly enough Refined sugar isnt actually absorbed as fast as most think It has a pretty moderate GI see http://www.carbs-information.com/gi-value-sugar.htm

okaaaay... blow my mind some, why don't you? That really surprises me. Yet, I feel the effects, the rush, from sugar. And it is higher than the other things listed on the page.

What do you think about the effect on "nüchternlaufen" a teaspoon of sugar in a coffee can have, kiwi? Maybe my "flash" was ignorant and premature, but I would still feel pretty safe saying that it wouldn't ruin the whole thing, and could boost the effect in the long run.

that sounds like a much better way to spend a monday morning than in the office, specially if youve got the same 'herrlichen' weather we have.

I got my work schedule set up j u s t the way I want it (at the moment)

And the weather is gorgeous right now. Hope lasts a few more hours... (Loving this German summer, it's the best day of the year).

 

[KiwiRunning]

What do you think about the effect on "nüchternlaufen" a teaspoon of sugar in a coffee can have, kiwi?

It would be absolutely minimal... If you normally drink your coffee sweetened, then drink it that way before a 'run on empty' run. its hardly going to matter, There's not a whole lot of calories in a few spoonfulls of sugar, Better to enjoy your coffee and get a good start to the run than get weird about it.

Loving this German summer, it's the best day of the year.

Classic now i need to get out and make the most of it...

 

[BFwillie_g]

It would be absolutely minimal... ...

whew!

A trainer (ex-DDR almost-olympic hammer-thrower to be exact) told me that the "magic zone" is between 80 and 90 minutes, for pretty much everyone. After that point, we probably don't have much sugar power left, regardless of what we ate before the run, or when.

Thing is, he was kind of a nutjob (1980s DDR, Hammer Thrower, draw your own conclusions). But I've been working with that "formula" since he explained it to me in 2005.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Willie's right about my ambiguous answers. A lot of people like to look at research or physiological logic, but we don't know nearly as much about the metabolic process as we sometimes like to think. Don't automatically do what "experts" say despite their confidence. It's important to stay skeptical. Food strategies are best developed by self-experimentation. Don't be surprised if you figure out a strategy that defies all that is known about metabolic pathways.

 

[scedastic]

Sigh. That will be my only foray into the search for hard and fast answers. Guess I deserved the vagueness. You know this whole summer I question everything, including these training plans. Ah well, n = 1 for this experiment. Thanks for the thoughts.
And btw, I am not even a one trick pony yet. Someday I would be so fancy as to have any tricks at all. Someday.

 

[Barfuß Chelsea]

So I've been chewing on this theory for a few days now and have decided I'm going to try it out. I'm training for a marathon on October 28th, meaning I have 10-12 long runs ahead of me between now and then. Jason, you mentioned that you like to incorporate this method into your training at least a couple of times a week. Any thoughts on doing it once every other week? I am a grumpy bear that NO ONE likes to be around when I don't eat!! Plus I would like to use real food for fuel this time around as opposed to gels, and I'm assuming it's going to require some getting used to as well.

Better to enjoy your coffee and get a good start to the run than get weird about it.

Hahahahaha!

 

[BFwillie_g]

I would like to use real food for fuel this time around as opposed to gels, and I'm assuming it's going to require some getting used to as well.

That's a good point, Chelsea, good to train eating on the run - bring a couple Nutella sandwiches along with you

I've experimented with things like boiled salty potatoes (btw, boring little yellow German "Pellkartoffeln" are great!), sweet potato/avacado mush in spring roll shell, fruits of all kinds ... Nutella (actually Alnatura Haselnuss Creme) on nice dense organic Dinkelbrot is what I like best. But I really don't eat much when I run - and you'll probably eat less than you expect during your marathon. Which one RU running?

The (ok, my) best training tool for a marathon is a couple runs jenseits the marathon distance - a couple s l o w 50k runs, for example.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Jason, you mentioned that you like to incorporate this method into your training at least a couple of times a week. Any thoughts on doing it once every other week?

I'm sure you'd get some sort of training effect from that. I do it often simply as a means of reducing overall calorie consumption.

 

[NickW]

That's a good point, Chelsea, good to train eating on the run - bring a couple Nutella sandwiches along with you

I've experimented with things like boiled salty potatoes (btw, boring little yellow German "Pellkartoffeln" are great!), sweet potato/avacado mush in spring roll shell, fruits of all kinds ... Nutella (actually Alnatura Haselnuss Creme) on nice dense organic Dinkelbrot is what I like best. But I really don't eat much when I run - and you'll probably eat less than you expect during your marathon. Which one RU running?

The (ok, my) best training tool for a marathon is a couple runs jenseits the marathon distance - a couple s l o w 50k runs, for example.

From what I've read and heard one might want to be careful and experiment when eating avocados while running. They tend to swell or cause something in the stomach to swell (can't remember exactly what) and can cause an upset stomach. If I remember correctly it depends on the amount of avocado that you eat though so it should just be a matter of experimenting and finding out how much works for you and how much is too much.