Good-bye running.

Bare Lee

Barefooters
Jul 25, 2011
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Saint Paul
Hello everyone,

A few weeks ago I was told my running days are over. Yesterday, a second orthopedist confirmed this. I have degenerative meniscus cartilage in my right knee and some of the articular cartilage on the femur has already been worn away. I'm going to see a third doc in August who will go over my treatment options, but it seems like continuing to run will only hasten the degenerative process.

Anyway, just wanted to thank everyone who's given me support and encouragement over the last several years, especially all the good folks on the mileage forum. I've enjoyed our exchanges immensely, and will always consider myself a barefoot runner even if I never run another step. I will continue to participate on this site as a barefooter, especially with the training logs I have going with Abide, BA, and Sid.

Long may you run!
 
Well that sucks! good luck on your new life as an OLD man:).
Seriously thou I wish you the best on whatever you'll do from now on and I hope your new Doc comes up with a fix for you...you never know.
 
Well that sucks! good luck on your new life as an OLD man:).
Seriously thou I wish you the best on whatever you'll do from now on and I hope your new Doc comes up with a fix for you...you never know.

Never say never Lee. I've been told several times by orthopods that my running days are over, but I'm still out there plotting away. Keep up the aerobic conditioning.
Well, my understanding is that I can run, and will be able to run, but that running will speed up the degenerative process. I felt the pain once in 2012 in my left knee, and twice now in the right, fall of 2014 and June, 2015. The second doc even suggested I could run once a week if I absolutely must, but I don't really see the sense in doing anything that will make it more difficult to walk in a decade or two. A few weeks ago I could barely walk, now I'm walking normally again. I prize that more than anything else, and I don't really like the idea of constantly managing flare-ups from running. As much as I love running, it's just not worth it to me.

As for other, less impactful aerobic options, there's biking, rowing, Nordic Track skiing, swimming, and "Street Sliding" (although I see the wire I sent last week to pay for the Street Strider has just been returned!).

The fix the second doctor recommended was threefold: (1), clean up the damaged meniscus cartilage; (2), irritate the femur where the articular cartilage has worn away so that scar tissue will form and perform the same articulatory and protective function as the lost articular cartilage; (3), try some cutting edge cell injections to rejuvenate the joint. He referred me to a third doc who's a leading researcher in the third procedure. These guys work at a Orthopedic Center that treats a lot of the local pro athletes, so I'll be in good hands. I'll see the third doc in three weeks or so. The doc also saw some damage behind the patella, but he didn't get into specifics about what he'd do with that, since he's not the one who'll be performing the surgery anyway. He's on medical leave (from surgical duties) because he's lost the feeling in his fingertips after undergoing chemotherapy.

So yeah, Dama's right, it really does feel like I'm entering a new life as an OLD man, and it sucks, but in the grand scheme of things, this is a pretty minor age-related disability to deal with. Much better than the cancer the doc I saw is dealing with.

Anyway, Dutchie's right, never say never, but the outlook doesn't look good right now for running. The good news is the second doc told me to definitely continue squatting, as squatting and keeping the rest of the joint strong has probably helped me manage the degeneration better than most. He said with weaker knees I probably would've started to experience problems much earlier.
 
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Sorry about that Lee. It could be worse, right?

No knee replacement surgery option?
 
I'm sorry to hear this but don't count yourself totally out right now. The body can be resilient at times. All the best as you continue to find out more and stay positive.

That is a sad news but as others say, miracles happen and sometimes body can heal itself despite of what doctors say.
Good luck with less impactful aerobic options (do not forget slacklining, great core workout and much fun !) :)
Thanks BG and Paraganek. The reason I'm pessimistic about healing up is that the meniscus has a poor blood supply and tends not to heal unless the damage is acute, on the outside, and with a younger athlete. My damage is degenerative, on the interior, and with my age chances of healing have decreased a lot. On hindsight, this has been a recurring problem with me over the last 3-4 years. It comes and goes, but when it goes, it doesn't heal, it just stays relatively unaggravated. I could continue to run, and just deal with these flare ups, but two of the flare-ups have been crippling, and running will hasten the degeneration, so the flare-ups would probably increase in frequency, so there's really no point. It's not like I'm a football player trying to squeeze a few extra million out of my veteran contract before I retire. Besides, it just wouldn't be fun to run knowing that I'm screwing up my knees.
Sorry about that Lee. It could be worse, right?

No knee replacement surgery option?
Thanks TJ, we're in a similar boat now. Who knows? Perhaps shoes contributed to my condition too. The heel of my shoes always used to wear unevenly.

Right, of all the age-related disabilities, this has to be one of the easiest to deal with.

Well, my understanding is that by intervening now with arthroscopic surgery and possibly the cell injections, knee replacement can be put off for quite a while, perhaps indefinitely. And of course, if and when I do finally need knee replacement, there will have been plenty of technological/medical advances in the intervening years. The docs have said that my knee looks fine otherwise. One doc I saw three years ago even said I have the bones of someone 20 years younger. I think they only do knee replacement surgery when the bones are shot and/or the ligaments unrepairable. In contrast, my bones are quite healthy, and my ligaments are very strong, according the doc I saw yesterday. So it's worth trying to fix up the interior cartilage damage, which was caused by simple wear and tear along with a probable genetic predisposition to degeneration. My mother had both her knees replaced, and my maternal grandmother also suffered from arthritis. The good news is that a lot of people in my family live into their 90s, which is further reason to conserve the knees as much as possible.

Anyway, thanks for the kind thoughts. I'm actually not too down about this. The doc yesterday said I should still continue to do squats, which is huge for me. The first doc thought I should only do light, partial squats with slow eccentrics. This second doc seemed to understand the value of full squats and didn't think going heavy was that big a deal, but agreed with me that I should probably keep within the 3-to-8-rep range, and avoid singles. And since my running has been so sporadic over the last 18 months or so, the shock of quitting running isn't so acute. It will take a while to really sink in, but at the moment I don't feel too bad about it. Once in a while I look upon people out for a run with envy, but for most part, I'm kind of looking forward to getting back into cycling and the street strider looks like it could be a gas and a great workout. The real drawback is that running is the only aerobic activity that's best barefoot, and I'm going to miss my thick plantar callus, which has already atrophied considerably. I'll still have it, but it won't be as leathery without the running. Oh well.
 
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Sorry to hear that. I've heard (not a doctor here) that they can do some surgery to get some marrow into the joint which will repair the meniscus, but it sounds like the doctors are giving you something similar or at least as beneficial.

How do you think the degeneration started?
 
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One you can be certain of. Doctors in general don't have a clue as to what they are talking about. If more than one doctor says the same, the more certain you can be they don't know what they are talking about.
One thing doctors can be very good at is finding the problem, the symptoms. But not the solutions.

It is obvious that cartilage is not supposed to be degenerating. So something is causing it, something that is not supposed to be. That something can be found and that something can be removed/corrected, thus the body will heal itself.
Each human essentially has a new body over every 20 years on cellular level... Given enough time and what the body actually needs, without what it needs not, and the correct mentality, then the body will heal from anything (unless genetics are faulty, but even those can be...).

Might not be able to find the true causes that easily. But what can do rather easily is finding wrong in your life, what you've done wrong, and what you still are doing wrong. And why they are wrong. And gradually correcting them. This of course requires lots of research and thinking, because, as I know from personal experience, the whole life can be founded on lies and falsehoods.

Good for joints and cartilage health. Eating animal cartilage, where else is supposed to come the material for building and maintaining cartilage in your own body? Then onions, garlic. Turmeric? (Haven't tried turmeric myself but read good from people who have tried it.) Minerals Ca (egg shells the easiest and the correct form the body can use), Mg (epsom salt, or MgCl2, or some other ionic magnesium), K (food grade KCl the easiest). Animal fat, meat, organs, fish, eggs.
Avoiding joint and cartilage destroying ways like eating excess sugar and toxins (herbi-pesti-fungicides, preservatives, color chemicals, etc.). Definitely avoiding unsprouted grain products. At least avoiding overcooking, if not all raw. And of course calm and happy times for many months, even years, to give your body time to heal from the damage.

I had a heart issue "modern" medicine claims "the best chance of survival is heart-transplant". All healed now...

I suggest be very wary of doctors and what they say, and don't just take their word as "authority" (especially about solutions), as if they know the absolute truth (because they don't), but do your own research. Doctors have their medical dogma and school indoctrination and brainwashing, all three paid by food and medical corporations - businesses - to back them... Healthy people don't pay, sick people do, and those "high up" know this. Everything "official" is corrupted in many ways, ways you probably wouldn't even expect to be.

If you want, and if you make the correct decisions, you can be running again "full-time" at most in some years.
 
Sorry to hear that. I've heard (not a doctor here) that they can do some surgery to get some marrow into the joint which will repair the meniscus, but it sounds like the doctors are giving you something similar or at least as beneficial.

How do you think the degeneration started?
According the docs and what I've read online, the meniscus gets a very poor blood supply, and so doesn't have the regenerative ability of, say, skin. I've led a pretty active life, and probably have a genetic predisposition to greater degeneration than most people. But it's a very common condition for people in their fourth or fifth decades.

Nummi, I appreciate your concerns, and I myself am always skeptical about anything when power or material interest intersect. If the government blathers on about freedom and democracy, for example, I ask who's profiting from policy. I know doctors are normal human beings, and at the University of Chicago the academics even call each other Mr/Mrs/Ms so as not be confused with medical doctors, mere consumers of other people's research. But the guy I saw two days ago is a researcher, as is the guy I'll be seeing in a few weeks. Those guys are motivated by curiosity and prestige just as much or more than by money. I've also read about the study where arthroscopic surgery and a placebo had the same short term effect on patient's outcomes. I've read about people who run and squat with torn menisci, and I've read about how running is actually good for one's knees, as knee flexion pumps in nutrients. Right now I am pain free and could probably run if I wanted to. I could probably manage this condition for several years. My concern, rather, is long-term. What will be the long-term effect of not treating this issue?

Well, first of all, there's a difference between an acute injury, one caused by a traumatic event, and a degenerative injury, which is when the body is unable to repair normal wear and tear. I am injured because my body is unable to maintain the meniscus, which has led to its degradation and greater susceptibility to tears and trauma that, in a healthy meniscus, would not occur. So it's unrealistic to expect my body to now repair something it couldn't even maintain. It's quite possible I was doing something wrong and don't run with perfect form, and it doesn't help that I'm overweight, but the bottom line is the meniscus isn't coming back on its own. It's physiologically impossible, like regrowing an amputated finger.

So then the question is how can I best manage this problem. Right now my right knee clicks a bit sometimes when bending it. That's a little flap from the meniscus tear. Last fall the knee would actually lock up painfully, and I had to massage around the top of the knee to get it to unlock. Surgery would fix that. If it's fixed then I can continue with all the activities that will keep my knee strong and otherwise healthy. The meniscus will continue to degrade, but perhaps at a slow enough rate that future interventions can be avoided.

I've also been taking supplements like you've recommended that are supposed to be good for the cartilage, although the evidence is anecdotal. That's fine, it doesn't cost too much and there's no harm even if it's just a placebo too.

The marrow transplant Halfhazzrd mentioned sounds similar to the technique the third doc I'm going to see has been researching and developing. The basic idea is to give the meniscus a better ability to regenerate itself. I can't understand why anyone wouldn't want to give that a try. And if these techniques exist and are getting better all the time, I don't see why I would want to risk further injuring my meniscus by running. A few weeks ago I could barely walk. That really stinks. My son would beg me to walk down to the park after dinner, but I couldn't. I would really like to be able to walk problem-free for the rest of my life. That's a much bigger quality of life issue than being able to run an hour a day three times a week.

Also, surgery would also give my femur a chance to scar over the area where the articular cartilage has worn away, which would protect the bone. My bones are otherwise quite healthy, supposedly as good as those of a man 20 years younger, so that intervention is also quite appealing to me.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your concern, support, and encouragement. It really means a lot to me. I hope I don't come off as dismissive of alternative therapies. A few weeks ago I didn't even know what the meniscus cartilage was, but I've been reading up on this stuff quite a bit since then. I will continue to consider my options so please continue to offer counterarguments to surgery, but I think the most helpful would be links to articles and studies. But please, also keep in mind that very few scientific studies are ever independently confirmed or replicated.

There's also the outside possibility that I will indulge in a short run once or twice a week. We'll see what the third doc says. The second doc recommended against any sort of running, but he was aware that some people just can't give it up, and seemed OK with some very mild version of it for total running addicts. I think he even suggested running once a week if I must, and then doing alternative forms of aerobic exercise the rest of the time. My perspective right now, however, is that it's best to avoid running altogether if that will in fact better conserve the joint long-term. We'll see. In any case, any pretensions of running regularly, long, or faster are fading now. Given what I know at the moment, it just doesn't seem worth it. It really, really sucks not to be able to walk, and I want to do everything to prevent that from happening again. If I were a total running addict, maybe I would be willing to put up with meniscus flare-ups every few months, be temporarily crippled, gradually rehab it, and get back out there, but I'm not. I've been in a continual state or injury/rehab for close to a year now and I'm really sick of it.
 
Have you seen this? Looks like a more natural motion to me ... http://run4.com/en/
Wow, that looks pretty cool. Thanks Gordon! It's about the same retail price as the Street Strider. However, I'm getting the latter for $619, free shipping. I'm also intrigued by the full body aerobic workout the Street Strider provides. I considered the Elliptigo, but like the Run4 Bionic Runner, it didn't seem different enough from cycling to justify the purchase. The Run4 Bionic Runner seems to be design for people who want to train for running with less impact. I'm more interested in finding aerobic alternatives, and it doesn't really matter to me if they closely mimic running motion or not. Still, I will keep the Bionic Runner in mind. I've also just picked up an old Nordic Track Ski Machine for free, so I'll be experimenting with that.
 
Sorry to hear about this Bare Lee. I wish you the best. Hope you stick around, I always enjoy your comments.
Likewise Rick, it's been great interacting with you here on the forums, and your running has always been an inspiration to me. I will probably continue participating for as long as Abide, BA, and Sid are interested in registering and discussing our training logs. Plus, I've been a casual barefooter for most of my adult life, and that's not going to change, and I prefer this site to the SBL site for discussion about general barefoot issues.
 
I am experiencing the same news delivered to me two weeks ago so I know the feelings. Was told by doc that I have a "messed up knee - osteo arthritis and probable torn cartilage. Emphatically told my running days are over and if I persist - lots of pain and the need for a new knee.

However I am seeing a specialist on Monday to investigate stem cell treatment. I put a question about stem cell therapy to the " Ask the Docs" forum -no reply yet.........(hint hint). My dogs don't understand we only walk now - I keep getting those big brown eyes looking back at me from the end of the leash and tugging to go faster.....tough ignoring that. Added to that getting a GSD pup in A ugust and hoped to train and run agility with her.

Good luck - if stem therapy is any good maybe we can both resume a semblance of running. I will post the specialists comments after my appointment on Monday - she has access to my X-ray and MRI. I am hopeful - have heard of great results. If it doesn't work then it's running vicariously on an elliptical machine with an ifit screen for scenery and walking the dogs of course.
 
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