Stamina or Strength.... but not both.

Hi there,
Any other folks have the same problem that I encounter when trying to balance running with gym work.
I have found that since pushing my milage up my stamina is great but my strength has diminished.
I go to the gym around 2-3 times a week but only do any leg work every 2 weeks as it takes my legs around 4 days to recover.
The problem with mixing gym and barefoot running is that I seem to lose the precise coordination required to run for those few days after the gym due to muscle soreness. This can be problematic with barefoot running as you can pick up an injury if your not running with the correct timing.
The weights I'm lifting are what I would have regarded as warm up weights a few years ago but now they feel heavy.
So, what sort of regimes have others found to be beneficial and what sort of timing do you have between gym and running?

Cheers

Neil
 
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I only do minimal light weights twice a week for the legs, mostly complimentary exercises to my running. I do single leg eccentric heel drops (3 sets of 10), lightweight dumbbell squats (3 sets of 10), and on the vertical leg press machine I do calf extensions (3 sets of 10). I've found as long as I give myself a day of rest from running afterwards (but I can ride the bike) I do pretty well, and seem to be improving in my running. Also, I always always always run before the gym. My running is more important to me than the weights in the gym so if I have to bail on exercises in the gym I'm ok with that. Also, there is this theory out there that if your running is more important, you do that first so you can finish that workout. Conversely, if weights are more important the thought is to do those first and running after that. Not sure how true that is, I read it at some point years ago and for me it seems to be true.
 
Interesting point about doing your running first if that is more important and weights first if that is more important. If I do cycle on a weight day in the off season, it's simply an easy spin AFTER weights. I'll do the treadmill for a warm up. But when I say light weight, I mean a set of 40, 30, then 20. I'll have to talk to my coach about the weight plan when I get to the point that I can actually RUN barefoot, but now it's just barefoot walking to condition my feet.
 
I find that my aerobic activities benefit from some sort of strength training, but maybe I'm just starting off weak compared to some of you. Part of the benefit is the stabilizing strength and part of it is potential for "power" (such as it is for little ole me). I do find that enough sleep and calories make a big difference, too. Not to mention the hot bathes. :)
 
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I do weights twice a week - I stick to the Stage 1 (conditioning stage) of the Book of Muscle (basically Get Buffed) by Ian King and Lou Schuler. This keeps me doing pretty basic full body exercises. I've stabilized at a weight that keeps me well conditioned and adds a bit of muscle. I have been as low as 75kg before with <10% body fat in my peak shod running days with light weight/high reps, whereas my current load holds me at about 84kgs with about 15% body fat, so let's say 80kgs if I'm lean. I prefer the look of a few extra pounds of muscle, so until I start getting fast and competitive (if ever) I'll keep this up.

Workouts are one hour e twice a week, and that's about as much as I can take before it affects my running significantly. I will also frequently take two days off a week, when I feel run down. My current run schedule is two 8km tempo runs, one 4km slow recovery (this one I will skip entirely if feeling worn out) and then a 12km long run.

At 42 this is as much load as my body seems to be able to take and recover well from. I have found that proper nutrition for recovery is critical: I use a meal replacement shake immediately after exercise or I feel sort of flat all day long. I'd love to be able to train 3x/week and run 5x, but I have come to accept that that's just not something I'm just not able to manage anymore. Aaaah, to be in my 20's again :).

That said, I'm really as big as I want to be (call it an athletic build, but not a runner's build) so this is working for me. I'll lean out a bit here in the next two months as summer's coming, but I don't think I'll be trying for under 10%. I think 10-12% body fat is healthier, especially if you're taxing your body running as well.

Sounds to me like you're maybe slightly overdoing it. If the fatigue/soreness progresses you know you need to back off, but maybe check nutrition first and see what that does for you.
 
I started getting serious about weights long before I got serious about running, and feel like they're about equal in terms of health benefits, although I enjoy running more. So I don't think I would ever consider diminishing my strength training so that I could do more running, although it did take a back seat over this past summer while I was focusing on trying to build up my distance a bit. Still, I haven't really noticed any zero-sum or trade-off effect. And like Robbi, I like being somewhat strong. I'm built like a NFL safety or a sprinter, not really a distance runner, although my goal in running is to get better at middle distance running, like 10ks and 10-milers.

I generally don't do any weights stuff for my legs (unless you count lifts and squats), so that they're fresh for running, but I've been rethinking that lately. And almost two weeks ago I tweaked my left knee a bit, so I'm wondering if I should try to strengthen the joint a bit with leg extensions, leg curls, and plyometric stuff. I got some plyo boxes recently and have been looking into various jumping/bounding-type exercises, although I won't start doing them until my knee is completely pain-free, hopefully within a week or less. I've uploaded an attachment with a bunch of these exercises, as well as my strength training (ST) routine.

Here's my (idealized) weekly routine:


M: ST: Front (bench, curls, etc)
Tu: Run: Tempo
W: ST: Top (shoulder press, upright rows, pull-downs, etc.)
Th: Run: Intervals & Hills run
F: ST: Back (lifts, squats, rows, etc.)
Sa: Run: LSD
Su: Rest/Run: recovery/Row

If I miss a day of weights, the next day I usually do the scheduled run rather make-up the weight day, and just shift whatever body area I missed to the next scheduled weight day. If I miss a day of running, I try to run the next day.

Thanks for bringing this up, it's interesting to see how other people manage the strength/running combo/dilemma.
 

Attachments

  • Plyometrics for Runners.pdf
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  • Weekly Exercise Routine.pdf
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P.S., Thinking about this a bit more, it might make more sense to put the Back ST day before the intensive intervals and hills day, to really push leg strength, and then have the Top ST day before the long run day, so that my legs are maximally fresh. Having the front and bicep day before the tempo run has a certain logic to it too, as I use my upper body more when I'm pushing the pace. It might also make sense for the Top ST day to follow the Back ST day so my shoulders are fresh for the heavier weights of the latter. So revised, it's:

M: RT: Front
Tu: Run: Tempo
W: RT: Back
Th: Run: Intervals & Hills run
F: RT: Top
Sa: Run: LSD
Su: Rest/Run: recovery/Row

Yes, yes, that looks better.

I also forgot to mention that each day, run or ST, is supposed to be about an hour, but the LSD is more like 80-90 minutes.

OK, obsessive compulsive switch off.
 
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I'm built like a NFL safety or a sprinter, not really a distance runner, although my goal in running is to get better at middle distance running, like 10ks and 10-milers.
I'm short and stocky, and I've found my best distances are short (5k and 10k). I can do 15k, but I am a lot slower once I get out that far and my body seems to like the lower distances better and I ache much less on the shorter distances.
 
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Running is prime for me and I don't have any time I care to take to do any other physical development. On the other hand I do climb trees as part of my job, gettting up a couple times a week for an hour or 2 a session, at least. I really don't want to put on any significant extra muscle weight to have to carry around, either.

That being said, my GF does like to feel hugged and not grabbed by a spindle, so I do my push ups to maintain some upper body mass. It's known that trail running is better accomplished with more upper body strength to improve the balance and core strength. Also, were I at all vain, there's nothing like broad shoulders to make a waist look narrower. My kids think it's especially hilarious that I can bounce my boobies in rythm with muscle twitches.
(tmi?)
 
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Lee you actually do that entire list in one sitting?
Yah, not always, but I try. Each group of exercises is set up to take about an hour, with the emphasis on the first exercises in each group. I take one-to-three-minute breaks in between the heavier exercises, but don't break much for the ones at the bottom half of the list, which are mostly body-weight/lighter-weight exercises. Ball-scratching is optional throughout. So for the 'front' group, for example, I would do something like this:

1. Bench Press: pyramid up, starting at 75lbs, up to 225lbs, in 50lb increments. As soon as I feel warmed up at each weight, doing 4-8 reps, I add another 50lbs. At max weight I can do 2-3 reps. I don't have a spotter so I can't lift to failure, otherwise I'd try to do a single rep at 250-275, like I used to at the gym. Then I go back down again, taking off 50, and then another 50, finishing at 125 lbs at 8-10 reps. If I improve in the future, I won't go up in 50-pound increments, but more like 20-pound increments. So the next max weight would be 245 lb, 2-3 reps.
2. Flies: I do 3-4 sets of these.
3. Cables: I sometimes skip these, depending on time, cuz they're mostly redundant with the flies, but I like to do them 2-3 sets, standing, using the same motion as for flies. I can only do a single cable at a time with my present set-up. It would be great to do cross-over cables. I used to love doing those. But those machines are expensive and take up a lot of space.
4. Dips: Front and back (Triceps): I love these, but until last spring I had a nagging shoulder injury, so I'm being extra careful on the front dips. I used to do 10 reps, 3 sets, and that's what I'd like to build back up to again. I never use extra weight--just body weight. My bench has dip handles so I can extend the posts. For the tricep dips I use my bench and put my feet up on a stool or plyo box.
5. Curls: I like to do 3-4 sets of these, using dumbbells, alternating arms. I don't like using a straight bar or doing both arms at a time, seems like too much strain.
6. Triceps: lying & standing: also three sets each. For lying triceps I lay down on a raised bench and pull a curling bar up from the floor, past my head at bench level and up straight, locking the elbows. This is good for the tris, but also the pecs and abdomen. I try to keep my elbows at a 90 degree angle through the first half of the exercise. For the standing tris I use a dumbbell, one arm at a time.
7. Plank: Triceps kickback: one or two sets, high reps. I rarely bother to count the reps. I just do them until I get bored.
8. Floor: Iron Cross: I do one or two sets, with ankle weights, good for the abs and abductors.
9. Floor: Hindu push-up: a couple of sets. I like to do these after the non-pec exercises 5-7 to give me a break. These are awesome and I get extra benefit doing them when I'm starting to fatigue. They also work the tris and shoulders pretty good.
10. Floor: push-up clap: one or two sets, low reps. I'm usually pretty tired by this point. I often skip these.
11. Abs: Bicycle Sit Ups: 2-3 sets. Very high reps so I don't count, just do them until I'm bored. I'm thinking of doing these with ankle weights too so it doesn't take as long.
12. Abs: Leg Lifts: same as 11
13. Legs: extensions & curls: haven't started these yet--waiting for the knee to heal and I have to get the extension/curl attachment that goes with my bench out of storage.
14. Legs: Plyometrics bench hop: This one I just hop side to side over the bench. Haven't done it for a while. 1-2 sets.
15. Strikes: I used to do karate, so I do a few of the fundamentals I can still remember at the end, no bag, just air. I gave my bag away to my nephew. I'm trying to figure out a diplomatic way of asking for it back, since he never uses it. He's more of a fan than a participant in sports, unfortunately. Too bad. The kid is something like 6'5". Would be a great lineman.
 
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Oh yeah, I get a good pump and the garage stinks. Even in the middle of winter, I sometimes have to take my shirt off. Our garage is unheated, but it's surrounded by house, so in the winter it's usually frosty when I start, but I heat up and heat it up after a while. In the summer it starts out nice and cool but within a short time it gets tropical, so I have to open up the garage door and let the passers-by gawk at this poor middle-aged man wrestling with his demons. In between sets I usually just pace back and forth, but sometimes sit down for a breather.

I should also note that the routines are structured so that I'm not switching out bars a lot. I tend to all the exercises for a given bar or bench or machine or general area at a time . This helps save a little on time. I also have a set of dumbbells so I don't have to mess with switching out plates on those. This really saves on time.
 
A couple of other things, not meant to critique or aything :)

Why are you wanting to do leg extensions and curls? Why not just do good mornings or straight legged deadlifts and front squats? You've got a squat rack right? Also upright rows can potentially be injurious to your shoulders, have you thought about doing the cuban press or face pulls instead? Granted they aren't working the same thing but it never hurts to work the external rotators more.
 
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A couple of other things, not meant to critique or aything :)

Why are you wanting to do leg extensions and curls? Why not just do good mornings or straight legged deadlifts and front squats? You've got a squat rack right? Also upright rows can potentially be injurious to your shoulders, have you thought about doing the cuban press or face pulls instead? Granted they aren't working the same thing but it never hurts to work the external rotators more.
I haven't done leg extensions and curls for a long time, maybe 25 years, but when I tweaked my knee two weeks ago, by taking a step like any other less than a mile into my run, it occurred to me that perhaps I should strengthen the joint a bit. The doc couldn't find anything wrong with the joint itself, so it's probably just a tweaked ligament / tendon that connects to the joint. Maybe it was due to landing slightly wrong, or from not warming up enough, or perhaps my lower leg muscles were stiff and pulled on it somehow. I dunno. Nothing like this has happened to me before, so maybe it's just age. I don't intend to use much weight, because I don't think the knee was really made to bear weight at those angles. Incorporating good mornings into my back routine might be a good idea, but that group of exercises is already kind of overloaded, and I don't want to do something involving the back in my front routine. That's what I like about the leg extensions/curls--they skip the mid section. Maybe I could alternate good mornings with squats on my back days. The posts on my bench are vertically expandable so I do squats with those. I don't do that much weight with the squats, once again being a little cautious about making the knee bear a lot of weight. On back days, deadlifts are my main heavy exercise.

You're absolutely right about the upright rows; that's how I hurt my shoulder in the first place! I was using a primitive weight set made out of paint buckets, cement, and 3/4" pipe in Mozambique. The injury happened about a month into getting back into shape. I only had two barbell weights--one with two 20-gallon buckets filled with cement on either end, and one with two half-full 20-gallon pails. The smaller weight was still too much for the kind of shape I was in at the time. My shoulder made a cracking or popping sound for several years, not always, but from time to time, and I was afraid of doing much weight with it. But then last winter I found the right combination of push, rest, and reps, and I slowly built it back up and it's been fine now for about six months. I began adding the upright rows back in just a month or two ago, but the progress has been swift; a few days ago I was able to do 90 pounds no problem. The shoulder feels fine now. I really like the upright rows so it would be hard to leave it off the list. The Cuban presses and face pulls look pretty good though. With the Cuban press I already kind of do something similar from a plank position (No. 3 "Rotator Cuff Plank" in this video
), so maybe I could alternate those. The face pull looks like a good alternate for the upright row. Thanks for the suggestions I'll give them a try. I'm always open to suggestions so don't hesitate. I mostly follow my present routine because I've been doing these kinds of exercise for a long time so it's easy, but a little variety never hurts.
 
I found a good balance between running and weight training by doing a lot of trail running and high-intensity interval training using primarily body weight exercises. I'm not great at either, but am a decent generalist. I can hold my own when running (19ish 5k, can reliably finish 100 milers) or weightlifting (can put up respectable times/scores on Crossfit benchmark workouts).

I do about 10-15 different exercises in different combinations using about five or six different workout formats. I tend to reduce the workouts to one-two per week during the heavy race season because I'm pretty much recovering or tapering all the time. In the "offseason" I do four-five workouts per week. My workout schedule has no effect on my running schedule.
 
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Lifting weights is prohibited for me-so I don't.
On my running days I do TRX lower body strengthing exercises. I read somewhere that one should work on lower body on running days and upper body on XT days that way that legs have a day to recoup.
So that's what I used to do. Now I just do what I feel like doing.
I am good at following the lower body workouts but I am terrible being consistent with the upper body workouts. Oh well, nobody's perfect.