Relaxation and bending knees

I've seen young children run with terrible form barefoot. My own daughter has done it more than once.
I've had grown ups explain to me that their body 'naturally' slouches and that's just the way their running posture should be.
Blame it on whatever you want, but 'just run' is self limiting in its applications.
There is I believe a reasonable continuum with a range of values between 'just run' on the one end and 'always overthink' on the other.
 
When my kids first started running as part of there athletics I did correct their form right away. But than again I had already be running for 20 years before that (shod or the pre wedge shoes) so I was more aware how this could affect them. But back in those days, 35 years ago, it was just go out and run and go self discover what worked for you. I think Jason has touched on that same sublect a few times as well. Did get hurt hurt a few times though on that journey, shin splints and a stress fracture in my tibia. But that was about it.
 
Blame it on whatever you want, but 'just run' is self limiting in its applications.
There is I believe a reasonable continuum with a range of values between 'just run' on the one end and 'always overthink' on the other.

No one is saying that education is a bad thing, but when it's put out there to run, lets say, at a certain cadence, do those values still hold true for a sixty year old? Someone who is overweight? Someone who has trouble sleeping for whatever reason and is always tired? We are just too diverse a species to be pigeonholed in such a way.
The Tarahumara make great runners because they grow up playing that little kick and chase ball game, nothing complex about it. Here are the rules.....Throw or kick a little ball, strap on a heart rate monitor, check your cadence is a certain bpm, don't laugh or have fun because you might be accused of being irresponsible, run like your life depends on it because it's a competitive world out there and you don't want anyone to think that you're weak, if you get to the ball first beat your chest and revel in your new God like status, check your heart rate monitor again and jump into an ice bath.
This is why people sometimes get a little lost with it all, kick a little ball an run after it, how hard can it be.
 
No one is saying that education is a bad thing, but when it's put out there to run, lets say, at a certain cadence, do those values still hold true for a sixty year old? Someone who is overweight? Someone who has trouble sleeping for whatever reason and is always tired? We are just too diverse a species to be pigeonholed in such a way.
The Tarahumara make great runners because they grow up playing that little kick and chase ball game, nothing complex about it. Here are the rules.....Throw or kick a little ball, strap on a heart rate monitor, check your cadence is a certain bpm, don't laugh or have fun because you might be accused of being irresponsible, run like your life depends on it because it's a competitive world out there and you don't want anyone to think that you're weak, if you get to the ball first beat your chest and revel in your new God like status, check your heart rate monitor again and jump into an ice bath.
This is why people sometimes get a little lost with it all, kick a little ball an run after it, how hard can it be.
Ske you are very wise... Kick a little ball and run after it... This actually really speaks volumes to me, about myself and modern American society.
 
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As usual (in terms of running, not drinking) I let the word on screen not convey my grey area thinking. I don't think 'just run' is perfect. I don't think hyperfocused technical thought/training/whatnot is ideal. I think sometimes you just gotta run and forget all the other business (kick the little ball, as Skedaddle so beautifully stated); likewise, sometimes you gotta make sure you're not doing yourself harm via negligence.

Here's a secret about Tim 'just run' Lomad: I videotape myself running about once every 3 weeks to a month, just to see what's going on with my running self. I am not a 'feel runner' by any stretch. Could be why idealize the 'just run' approach. I have to have something to see what's going on from an outside perspective. I have to run with a Garmin, because I have no sense of my pace. At all. I run easy my first mile and it'll be a 7:40-8:20 pace. Great for a mile or two, but I'm dead and running 12's for the remainder of my 8-miler. I run in shoes now because I couldn't do myself any favors by continuing barefoot (I invariably lean backward when running barefoot. It's a fear reaction to my busted foot. I can't stop it; I consciously tell myself to lean forward, run tall, etc. then see my self past 90* rearward, which leads to reaching feet , which leads to an over stride, which leads to my mets hurting....) In shoes I run tall, aligned and efficiently. Whatever. I've stopped trying to 'figure it out' and just run the way that hurts least.

Sorry for the super long post. I 'just wrote' :)
 
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Thank you all together! Thank you for all the good tips! I can not specify the location of my knee pain, because it's variating. But today I ran with naturally bend knees (not too much bend), with a better posture and a higher cadence than usually and had no pain! I ran one whole mile! This one mile is a record for me!

Very interesting: I've heard dubstep during my run today. In this thread I wrote how it worked for me to maintain a good cadence:

http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/threads/running-with-dubstep-cadence.7368/
 
BL- I agree with the "coming full circle thing." When I first started, there was very little info out there. I just ran and figured things out mostly on my own. As discussions on forums progressed, my theories and teaching methods got more complex as we tried to intellectualize every minute detail. Eventually I realized we weren't helping most people, which began a period of simplification. A major component of that trend is the realization that a) people are different and will develop slightly different styles based on their individual physiology, and b) different people have different learning styles. The key is accounting for "a" while figuring out which"b" will be most successful.

Add in the fact that we (the collective running world) really don't know squat about running and you get a million and one divergent opinions.
Yah, I'm thankful I have a much better understanding of all that goes into running now, but I can't help but wonder if I would've made more progress by now without it. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure I will benefit from this extra knowledge in the long run, as it seems almost everyone who runs for more than a few years finds trouble of one sort or another, including 'the elites,' be it plateauing, overuse injury, or defective mechanics. I just think I got a little ahead of myself before establishing a decent base, for which a 'just run' approach might've been best. Hard to say. The key is to find a way to help others avoid the same or different mistakes. When I saw my 16-year-old nephew run a month ago, I really did not know where to begin. He went out for football one year, broke his arm, and that's been the extent of his involvement in sports, beside watching them. For that kind of person, a 'just run' approach is sure to fail. But I wonder if he'll give me a second chance at figuring out 'b.'
 
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I'm not a fan of barefoot running books, it's one persons style which will not fit with the general public. I did buy Ken Bob's book but I thought it would be more stories about his barefoot running races, adventures, etc. Not a tutorial. Saying that, I did try the exaggerated knee bend, it was horrible for me. I have seen Ken Bob in person a few times, he has short legs. No disrespect to the man, he is a legend! I have long legs and when I was really bending them, things just never got comfortable for me, and when I tried this I was two years into barefoot running, so obviously I went back to my natural style. If I started out with bending the knees allot, who knows.

You don't need to read books about barefoot running. It's quite simple, you have to learn how to land forefoot, learn to lift the feet, and bend the knees, and more importantly be relaxed, there I just published a book on barefoot running. Now you take those things and find your own comfort zone and enjoy the journey. And, I think barefoot running forums are so much better than reading a book about barefoot running, because you get different opinion, tips, styles, in which you will try out and sooner or later something clicks that works for you.
 
No one is saying that education is a bad thing, but when it's put out there to run, lets say, at a certain cadence, do those values still hold true for a sixty year old? Someone who is overweight? Someone who has trouble sleeping for whatever reason and is always tired? We are just too diverse a species to be pigeonholed in such a way.
The Tarahumara make great runners because they grow up playing that little kick and chase ball game, nothing complex about it. Here are the rules.....Throw or kick a little ball, strap on a heart rate monitor, check your cadence is a certain bpm, don't laugh or have fun because you might be accused of being irresponsible, run like your life depends on it because it's a competitive world out there and you don't want anyone to think that you're weak, if you get to the ball first beat your chest and revel in your new God like status, check your heart rate monitor again and jump into an ice bath.
This is why people sometimes get a little lost with it all, kick a little ball an run after it, how hard can it be.

..and people that have sinus colds?
 
Hi everyone,

I've got two questions:

1. Am I bending my knees enough?

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2. I know that relaxation is very important for barefoot running. But I don't understand how to do so. Should I completely relax my calves muscles too, when I'm bending my knees like Barefoot Ken Bob (Video here)? When doing so, I feel that achilles tendons are permanently stretched and begin to hurt.

Please help an absolute beginner :)

Thank you!
Hey b.o.b. I was reading this today and wondered if it could be useful in debugging your barefoot gait. I sure hope you have success as it sounds like it has been a frustrating time for you.
The two paragraphs below are cut from a swim website I use: www.swimsmooth.com

It is very hard to be aware of the flaws in your own stroke technique because they tend to occur in parts of your stroke where you have holes in your proprioception or body awareness. Way back in December 2009 we posted a classic blog to help you self-diagnose such flaws using something called 'stroke contrasts'. This is a very useful method for those without a coach overseeing their swimming and well worth a revisit today, two and a half years on!

The idea is very simple: swim a short distance and deliberately add a flaw to your stroke. If the flaw makes your swimming feel immediately worse that's fine but if it feels the same or only a little different from normal then there's a good chance we've identified an area for improvement in your swimming.

Well let me know if you figure something out. By the way, I know that you have gotten a lot of advice in this thread, but I wanted to say that barefoot running is somewhat like swimming because there is so much to be aware of. Swim technique coaches will often say to pick one aspect to work on at a time. (as noted from above excerpt)

This morning when I was running I remembered to push my hips slightly forward which helps keep your body mass over your feet and encourages the forefoot landing. I think it also encourages a better overall posture. Perhaps you can give it a try.
 
I'm not a fan of barefoot running books...

Clearly you haven't read mine. I do away with all logic and common sense and fill it with bad puns, jokes, and obscure cultural references. It's like a bad episode of of the Ed Grimley Show without the cool dancing. Oh, and I spend in inordinate amount of time discussing pooping in the woods.

;)
 
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Clearly you haven't read mine. I do away with all logic and common sense and fill it with bad puns, jokes, and obscure cultural references. It's like a bad episode of of the Ed Grimley Show without the cool dancing. Oh, and I spend in inordinate amount of time discussing pooping in the woods.
You're the only barefoot blogger I pay any attention to Jason, not only for your sense of humor, but mainly because you seem to be one of the few who's willing to approach any topic with a completely open mind. It doesn't hurt that you've got a gypsy soul too.
 
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Clearly you haven't read mine. I do away with all logic and common sense and fill it with bad puns, jokes, and obscure cultural references. It's like a bad episode of of the Ed Grimley Show without the cool dancing. Oh, and I spend in inordinate amount of time discussing pooping in the woods.

;)


Not yet, but definitely plan on picking it up! I had a feeling it was going to be a little bit more about barefoot running anyways. The cover sold me as well, I like the simple writing of the title, it was a good touch:)
 
And for those that like to point to the Tarahumara- they are good runners because they can't afford cars. Poverty is the mother of invention.

Ha, Ha, I was homeless for two years and have never owned a car, but i'm still a c$@p runner! So if poverty is the mother of invention, i'm an orphan.
That's the thing about Western thinking, everything is judged by the acquisition of wealth, just because a culture doesn't own plasma TV's it doesn't make them poor.

Pooping in the woods though is a fine art that i haven't mastered yet, so i'm sold.