Optimal strength training for runners
- Thread starter Abide
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"Yeah the volume is a bit high. I am planning going to throw an off week every 3 maybe that would help. The additional excercises will be limited to how I feel I just want to make sure the first two lifts are good each day."
As long as you're not too regimented, you should be OK. I have a pretty lackadaisical approach--if I'm not feeling it, I back off, and I do my routine with few expectations as to reps, max weight, or number of sets. Some days I do really well, some days I just go through the motions, some days I start out just going through the motions but end up strong once I get a good pump started, and so may go back to the first exercises. I would be a terrible personal trainer.
Yeah there is only so much range of motion he can get with 225lb. dumbells. He is insanely strong. Read this for more info on Kroc rows.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/kroc_rows_101
Interesting. I always found it a bit difficult to maintain the arc, so it's cool he says it's not important.
Be careful with GHDs it is one of the excercises that gave Crossfit a bad name, as in causing a ton of cases of rhabdo. However they are a fun alternative to situps.
Yeah, I would tak it real slow, starting with my body parallel to the bench.
Tbar? Is that the one you hook onto a barbell and lift in a corner?
I had the name wrong, it's called a lat blaster bar I guess. I lean the barbell into a brick against the wall to protect the wall. The swivel platform is a little pricey and unnecessary I think. I don't like the way the tightening screw is on top and towards the body, but otherwise this was a good purchase, much better than doing bent-over rows with a straight barbell:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000A6V3UA/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00
Body Solid LBB28 Lat Blaster Bar
As long as you're not too regimented, you should be OK. I have a pretty lackadaisical approach--if I'm not feeling it, I back off, and I do my routine with few expectations as to reps, max weight, or number of sets. Some days I do really well, some days I just go through the motions, some days I start out just going through the motions but end up strong once I get a good pump started, and so may go back to the first exercises. I would be a terrible personal trainer.
Yeah there is only so much range of motion he can get with 225lb. dumbells. He is insanely strong. Read this for more info on Kroc rows.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/kroc_rows_101
Interesting. I always found it a bit difficult to maintain the arc, so it's cool he says it's not important.
Be careful with GHDs it is one of the excercises that gave Crossfit a bad name, as in causing a ton of cases of rhabdo. However they are a fun alternative to situps.
Yeah, I would tak it real slow, starting with my body parallel to the bench.
Tbar? Is that the one you hook onto a barbell and lift in a corner?
I had the name wrong, it's called a lat blaster bar I guess. I lean the barbell into a brick against the wall to protect the wall. The swivel platform is a little pricey and unnecessary I think. I don't like the way the tightening screw is on top and towards the body, but otherwise this was a good purchase, much better than doing bent-over rows with a straight barbell:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000A6V3UA/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00
Body Solid LBB28 Lat Blaster Bar
You may want to look the 5-3-1 workout. I've been doing it for the past 7months and have had some good strength gains. It concentrates on the larger muscle groups like you have been talking about. It's basically a power lifter without. Now I am no powerlifter but it fits well into my schedule.
5-3-1 is a regimented schedule of lower rep sets followed with a few higher rep support exercises. The weight is always a percentage of your max and increases incrementilly each week. Since I am not trying to gain weight I expect to top out soon and then I'll try something different for awhile.
If you Google it there is a few guides online and an e-book if you want. I also have a spreadsheet I use I can send you. I do the"big but boring" variation. And would be lost without the spreadsheet I
5-3-1 is a regimented schedule of lower rep sets followed with a few higher rep support exercises. The weight is always a percentage of your max and increases incrementilly each week. Since I am not trying to gain weight I expect to top out soon and then I'll try something different for awhile.
If you Google it there is a few guides online and an e-book if you want. I also have a spreadsheet I use I can send you. I do the"big but boring" variation. And would be lost without the spreadsheet I
Yeah I have been following his program for about a year and a half. It's definitely a good program, I actually still based the three lifts, bench, dl and press on his layout. My problem is I keep stalling out at the same point. I blame it entirely on running too much and not a programming issue. I'm trying to tweak it a bit to see if some variation helps. I also cut back my 4 cycle increase to only 5lbs. on all lifts. We'll see if that helps some.
Have you guys considered doing this more by feel? Basing a workout on one of the heavy exercises at low reps, pyramiding, and then doing lighter, supporting exercises at somewhat higher reps, pyramiding or not, is pretty standard it seems to me. I would try throwing out the exact numbers and pyramid by feel. When you reach max weight, you'll know. Then back off and come back down in increments. If you don't make progress every week that's OK. If you're not feeling it, do less weight, or reps, or sets. You'll still make progress over time.
Back in the day when I got stuck, I would do 2 or 3 weeks 3 day a week of nothing but my 1 rep max. Sets of 2 or 3 with a spotter. Followed by a week off. It usually got me through the plateau. These days I just opt for the week off. I can't risk the injury at my age . That said, you don't see too many powerlines doing marathons although they are out there. My genetics aren't in my favor. Unless I try to gain weight, I'll top out pretty soon.
I used to but I was over doing it. Having a schedule keeps me focused on the long term goal which is "Don't get hurt" for the most part.
I guess you have a different feel than I do. My approach keeps me from having immediate expectations, which keeps me from doing too much if I'm having an off day, or didn't sleep well, etc. But on the days when I'm feeling it, I know I can push myself a bit. Same with running. I still have a very structured workout routine, but I freely deviate from it. It's just a guideline. Like you, I value staying injury-free over all else. Different way to skin the cat I guess.
Just found this great article.
http://www.atlargenutrition.com/blo...-alex-viada-so-you-want-to-run-and-be-strong/
Isn't this the truth.
"If your goal is to improve endurance while maintaining a high level of strength it is not advisable to seek the counsel of pure runners or the like. Most endurance coaches, no matter how outstanding they may be, understand only what is most effective for dedicated (i.e. dedicated to nothing but) endurance athletes."
http://www.atlargenutrition.com/blo...-alex-viada-so-you-want-to-run-and-be-strong/
Isn't this the truth.
"If your goal is to improve endurance while maintaining a high level of strength it is not advisable to seek the counsel of pure runners or the like. Most endurance coaches, no matter how outstanding they may be, understand only what is most effective for dedicated (i.e. dedicated to nothing but) endurance athletes."
I think there is a very good point in that article I just posted. Since we are combining two completely different goals, greater strength and better endurance, with limited time, a premium is placed on having a very organized schedule to help promote the best gains in both endeavors.
I agree having an organized schedule is very helpful, even though I rarely am able to comply with my weekly routine 100%. I was just questioning the exacting numbers of reps, sets, and weights, and wondering if this has something to do with you stalling from time to time. Admittedly, I have no real goals in ST. I'm just trying to gradually improve over time, with no real idea of where I'll end up. In running, I have set a short term goal (run an hour at 8mm pace), but even there, I don't set an exact pace goal for each run, or an exact rate of improvement from week to week. When I'm not feeling it, I back off, when I feel it, I push it. I'm not saying this will work for you guys, just trying to suggest this possibility, as I've never had the feeling of stalling out, and it seems like a good way to avoid injury.
Didn't see the earlier post with the link to that article. Just read it. It's great to see there's another meat-head out there who likes to run too, although he leans more towards the ST side, whereas I lean more towards running.
He more or less endorses the scheduling logic I've come up with, so that's nice. He's doing a lot more training overall, of course, so whereas I'm alternating running days with ST days, he sometimes combines them on the same day. Still, the reasoning is the same. My Top ST day, which works the shoulders and lats, comes at the end of the week, after the chest and back days, so that the shoulders aren't fatigued when doing those heavy weights, and the Top ST precedes the long run day, so that my legs are maximally fresh. The Intervals and Hills days comes right after the Back ST day, so that my legs are maximally stimulated for greater power adaptation. After my long run day, I do plyo boxes, skipping, bounding, and stuff, to limber up the legs. Here's my weekly schedule again:
Mon Front ST
Tu Temp Run
Wed Back ST
Th Intervals & Hills
Fri Top ST
Sat LSD Run
Sun Bottom ST & Running drills/exercises
It's all geared to allow maximal recovery time, minimal interference between ST and running, except for my Back ST to Intervals & Hills sequence, where the object is to over-train a bit for greater power adaptation, leading, hopefully, to greater speed in the long run.
He more or less endorses the scheduling logic I've come up with, so that's nice. He's doing a lot more training overall, of course, so whereas I'm alternating running days with ST days, he sometimes combines them on the same day. Still, the reasoning is the same. My Top ST day, which works the shoulders and lats, comes at the end of the week, after the chest and back days, so that the shoulders aren't fatigued when doing those heavy weights, and the Top ST precedes the long run day, so that my legs are maximally fresh. The Intervals and Hills days comes right after the Back ST day, so that my legs are maximally stimulated for greater power adaptation. After my long run day, I do plyo boxes, skipping, bounding, and stuff, to limber up the legs. Here's my weekly schedule again:
Mon Front ST
Tu Temp Run
Wed Back ST
Th Intervals & Hills
Fri Top ST
Sat LSD Run
Sun Bottom ST & Running drills/exercises
It's all geared to allow maximal recovery time, minimal interference between ST and running, except for my Back ST to Intervals & Hills sequence, where the object is to over-train a bit for greater power adaptation, leading, hopefully, to greater speed in the long run.
Yeah I am reconsidering the layout of mine. You lift a little too much for me, I'd like to keep it to 3 days a week if I can. I'm going to can sprints and hills for now though. I've always liked the westside concept, the only problem is the mix of excercsies and equipment is quite daunting.
I guess we should talk about goals too, my short term goal is obviously to get faster over the next 5 trail races. Long term though I think running a longer trail ultra would be fun (maybe), or maybe I can get to the goal of a r2r2r. I'd still like to get a 2 x bw squat some day, and maybe a 300lb. bench.
I guess we should talk about goals too, my short term goal is obviously to get faster over the next 5 trail races. Long term though I think running a longer trail ultra would be fun (maybe), or maybe I can get to the goal of a r2r2r. I'd still like to get a 2 x bw squat some day, and maybe a 300lb. bench.
Don't get me wrong I do really adjust workouts and runs by feel. Usually my thought is to hit the minimum goal as hard as I can and then adjust the remainder to be a little harder or easier. However sometimes I get a little extra time in the gym or out running and that is where I screw things up. Rather than rolling I'll do a set of heavy rows, than bench and go sprint at the park. So I am thinking by having specific workouts for both running and lifting it'll help tame some of the extra energy I have.
That makes sense. Unfortunately I don't have your problem of extra energy. I'm middle-aged with two young children and an immigrant wife, sleeping 4 to 7 hours a night. Not complaining thought, it's nice to be in this stage of life. It took me a while to learn that I can't blow off workouts though. No matter how busy, I need to get them in, to keep my energy levels up.
As for lifting too much, I also only lift three days a week, and basically run three days a week. My last day, on Sunday, is a mixed day with no heavy lifting or running, and is the workout that gets nixed if I need a rest or have needed to shift workouts over because I missed one in the middle of the week. I've enclosed my workout routine again just in case it's of some interest. This is an idealized routine, and set and rep and max numbers aren't fixed, so I can adjust quite a bit, and I can nix the later exercises if I'm pressed for time.
I'm really liking the way our thinking has converged. Even though I don't have any real specific goals, we both want to get stronger and faster with more endurance. The reason I hesitate to set more specific goals is (1) for ST, I'm not really sure what my strength capabilities are at my age, and (2), for running, although I'm pretty sure age won't really factor into it, right now I don't have the free time to get caught up in races. Weekends are dedicated to the wife and kids, and extra work. Maybe in a few years it might be fun to give a race a try. The reason I want to run a bit faster is because it feels better to run that way, mostly. There's a little lingering pride involved too I suppose.
My knee tweak kind of put me off my intervals and hills, now I don't know if I'll get back to them before winter, we'll see. In any case, once snow covers the track, the plan is to substitute that day with a tempo run, and then when I've gotten my pace down a bit, substitute that with another longer run. So my weekly schedule will be LSD-Tempo-LSD, then in the spring mix the intervals and hills back in, but maybe only every other week. The reason I have both a tempo run and intervals and hills scheduled once a week is because I've been wanting to make more rapid progress on pace, because at 9 mm or faster, my form feels much better. Once there, I'll go back to working on distance.
It's great to live vicarious through all you guys racing and doing trails in beautiful landscapes. I used to have that kind of life too, and hopefully will again soon, so it's nice to keep in touch with it, keep me focused on attaining that outcome.
Yeah I count myself lucky in regards to racing, my wife also likes to run and she actually does most of the races with me. Actually she tends to run races a little more often than me. It makes it easier to have a similar hobby, and we are trying to get the boys into it a little more. Our oldest and my wife are going to run together for his first 5k.
That sounds great! Hopefully I can get at least one of my kids interested in running with me when they're a bit older. I kind of doubt my wife will ever come around, but she has murmured something about exercising lately . . .
Lee I am still stunned with the variety you do each workout, its crazy. I'm lucky to get in 4-5 different lifts each session before I am burnt out.
How heavy are your ankle weights for leg lifts? Have you ever tried them with a band? I'm trying to figure out a way to load them so the top isn't too easy.
How heavy are your ankle weights for leg lifts? Have you ever tried them with a band? I'm trying to figure out a way to load them so the top isn't too easy.
Your not that far away our oldest just turned 6. They are doing that hot chocolate 5k race, it's kind of cheesy but kids love them. I'm actually considering running an obstacle race with him, I figure that might be more fun.
Well, keep in mind that the latter exercises are usually done for just two sets, sometimes even just one, and often left out if I'm pressed for time. To do an entire workout properly takes about an hour, with the bench press and dead lift getting about 10-15 minutes at the beginning of their respective workouts. After the big exericses, I begin to pick up the pace. The Top workout takes a little too long, partly because of all the monkeying around with different gear, but also because there's a few too many exercises in there. I could alternate a few on a weekly basis, we'll see. I'm constantly refining this routine (remember it's all been recently revamped) so it'll probably be another few months before the whole thing is fairly polished. Also keep in mind that I'm probably not doing the heavier exercises as intensely as you do them.
I got a pair of 10lb ankle weights on Amazon, (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001FB5VAW/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00) for 27.99, and one 20-pounder from a wholesaler friend. It's a recent purchase, and with the knee tweak, I've only used them once. I tried them for the first time about 3-4 weeks ago but the lateral strain wasn't good for my knee. This week my knee feels about 95%, but I still won't do any exercises with ankle weights for another few weeks. Today on my Back ST exercises, I'll also be leaving off the lunges and squats. I don't want to do anything that might set back my running any further. To answer your question, I haven't tried these with a band. I only do one exercise with a band. I should probably work in a few more with the floor/mobility exercises.
A 5k for a 6-year old seems pretty impressive. I can't imagine our five-year-old daughter even running around the block. What are you feeding him? Maybe our toddler son will be different . . .
