Optimal strength training for runners

Discussion in 'Health, Nutrition, Injuries & Medical Conditions' started by Abide, Oct 23, 2012.

  1. Robin Barefooters
    1. Belgium

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    Though there's a US ulta runner in there which you might know,but I didn't that has cut his total amount of training hours quite a bit and has profited from it.But like I said you have to read about,if I write it down here it might come across totally false;)

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  2. Robin Barefooters
    1. Belgium

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    http://www.youblisher.com/p/679719-The-4-Hour-Body-Free-Download-PDF/
    Here's a link to get it for free...hope you can get something out of it:)

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  3. Robin Barefooters
    1. Belgium

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    don't start out to heavy at first you'll hurt your shoulders,it's a bit awkward at first finding how you like the bar on your shoulders.I guess nowadays there are contraptions so the bar needn't rest on your shoulders,don't know about them though.

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  4. Abide Barefooters
    1. Arizona -...

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    So Robin, what kind of a workout do you do?
  5. Abide Barefooters
    1. Arizona -...

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    They definitely tax the legs and actually all the primary movers that running hits as well. You could cycle, my only issue with that method is you likely wouldn't get better at squatting. I always focus on progress though and its what keeps me motivated, so maybe that's not such a bad thing? A whole midset change.
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  6. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
    1. Minnesota

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    I tend to do peak my heavy lifts at around 8 on that scale.

    I guess if you're doing the lifts easyish, you should be able to sustain it for 40 days. I've done up to seven days in a row of good effort st, and I think purposeful overtraining can be useful from time to time, as long as there's recovery time built in at some point. 40 solid days seems like a lot though. I'll be interested in hearing the results.

    I've been doing something a little similar in my running. For the last couple of months I have been running almost everyday, but it's mostly rinky dink one-mile run-commutes with just three longer runs per week. Hard to say whether I'm benefiting from the more constant running or not, but it's nice to know it's possible. I suspect I'll start to see results in another month or two.

    For squats and running, I think it's as Nick says. The squats will interfere with your immediate running, but over the long run, there should be some benefit. It's just a matter of finding a balance congruent with your goals. Obviously, you don't want to have really big legs if you're an endurance runner, but if you're practice recruiting powerful muscle fiber in your squats, then you should have more muscle to draw on in your runs. If I squat on Wednesday, I feel like I suffer no ill aftereffects by the time I go on my weekend long run Saturday or Sunday. 48 hours seems like adequate time for recovery. With deadlifts, the interference with running is even less.

    In any case, your squat and deadlift maxes are great for a long distance trail runner, I would think. I feel the same way you do though, it's ridiculous I can bench more than I can squat, but that should change soon in my case. Not too long ago my deadlift was the same as my bench too, and now's approaching 1.5x, and should be 2x within another year.

    I guess I'll pass without giving it a fair shake. Based on the reviews, it just sounds a little too good to be true, kind of like this:

    And anyway, I'm kind of burnt out on this stuff. I'm kind of conservative fitness-wise, and I really hate reading about nutrition stuff. I would, however, be interested in hearing about any specific benefits you've attained.
    that was my understanding: four hours per month. I do four hours of st per week, and still feel it's not enough.
    Well, it's the same as the trialthlete endorsing the maff method. They were overtraining, so of course reducing training paid off for them.
    Thanks, I'll have a look.
    Yah, I always ease into new exercises until I get a feel for them. I only had 20lbs on my overhead squats yesterday . . . no soreness today so I'll add a bit next time.

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  7. Robin Barefooters
    1. Belgium

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    are you sure you want to know...? lol I run twice a day 5 days a week,of which 8runs are LSD,1 speed interval,1 strength interval with 15 Kilo bodyvest.
    I do crossfit for 15 to 30 min everyday,friday I do strength (just legs) 1rep max training doing 6 exercises as heavy as I can(15min warm-up offcourse).I have to watch out though,a couple years back I got hemorroids doing very heavy squating,it comes back if I don't watch it.To give you an idea I squat 463.lbs 1rep max(after which my back has to be ironed back to its regular form lol),incline leg press 849lbs 1 rep.(I weigh 176 btw).front squat 308lbs,i do leg extensions,leg curls basically a full leg workout like body-builders do.I've been doing this since I was 16,I'm 39 now...on sundays just for fun I go mountainbiking or hiking all afternoon.I live in Belgium,so mountainbiking might come of as something really awesome but even the hills here are just bumps in the road lol :D I have to be honest and tell that I do NOT work and all I do is train eat and sleep.I just saw a video of a guy that runs 20 hour + a week and working 40 hours,I think that's way worse :).
    Those weights...I can't get as heavy as that every friday,allthough I try,but it's more or less the same every week,if there's a 40lbs drop I stop doing the friday training for a couple of weeks.That's the thing with training it is so different for everybody you know,you have to feel what is going on with your body.But being able to sleep whenever I feel like it,I think,is the major advantage.On top of nutrition I take BCAA's,vitamins,protein shakes,twice a year I use testosteron boosters (it makes your body produce more testosteron)it's legal everybody can get them ,every major supplement manifacturor has them.They work,I get my blood checked before and after,for me they double my bodies testosteron production.Benefits are I sleep better,recuperate better,and get stronger.It's just to give you an idea...:)

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  8. Robin Barefooters
    1. Belgium

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    Lee,it's just that stuff like that interests me that's all.I have the time and I try stuff out on myself,I rarely talk about it 'cause people look at me like :"wtf is he talking about?!" LOL People should only try things if they want to.(I'm not going to sell you anything :hilarious:)it's practically the same with barefoot running.People are not hostile here but the looks I get...oh man.I should take pics of the people.:D

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  9. Robin Barefooters
    1. Belgium

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    But I guess I get what you're trying to say,I'm starting to get sick and tired with the studies contradicting eachother.Latest thing I read(last week) was that eating lots of grains and nuts is bad for our teeth.Man I stopped eating bread,pasta...basically all white starchy food two years ago.I read up on it,it said you have to eat nuts and grain and chia ,quinoa,you get the picture.Well now they're supposed to be bad for the teeth...so what I do is I try things if they work I keep it if it doesn't work out the door with it.:)

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  10. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
    1. Minnesota

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    That's some serious training! I once trained 4-5 hours a day while in Japan doing karate. It's awesome, but I only worked part time. For weight training, I've only trained seriously three times in my life, 2-3 years each time, so I've never gone at it long enough to get much beyond the initial phases. Same with running. Hopefully this time I can keep going until it's time to return to dust.
    I am interested in training stuff, but when people start taking about glucose levels my eyes glaze over. Still, even for lifting and running, I doubt there's much more I can do now, except tweak things. It still always comes down to lifting heavy with good form, or running slow or fast, short or long. Everything else is details.
    Yeah, it's like everyone's been gluten intolerant for thousands of years but didn't know about it. Until my hair falls out, I'll eat whatever I want. Just avoid the processed crap and eat organic if you can.

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  11. Robin Barefooters
    1. Belgium

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    Yes,I found that knowing what works for my body is key.Once you know what work for you,everything falls into place.
    Changing from mountainbiking and martials-arts to ultrarunning is hard,that's how I ended up overtrained last winter,and suffered from it well into summer.Running bare has helped enormous for me,I would always run to fast on my LSD runs,in winter I run in minshoes so that's what happened I ran to fast for months on end.
    I've learned from it,I'm in minshoes right now too(it's cold and wet and I'm a wuss :).Now I don't leave the house without the heartrate monitor.

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  12. Abide Barefooters
    1. Arizona -...

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    What's a strength interval, just running with a weighted vest?

    Ok hang on do you go to parallel or below on your squats? That's some crazy weight. And what is crossfit?
  13. Robin Barefooters
    1. Belgium

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    speed interval with the bodyvest on and uphill.I squat ass to heels :) Crossfit,you can check out on youtube.It's basically strenghtendurance training :)

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  14. Abide Barefooters
    1. Arizona -...

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    Very Impressive! you are close to a triple bodyweight squat.

    I know what crossfit is, well actually I don't really know what it means anymore just curious as to what it means to you? At this point its just a mish mash of everything.

    I'm still in awe with how much you train and still having such impressive numbers.
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  15. Robin Barefooters
    1. Belgium

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    Yes that's what crossfit is...mainly some exercises put together and you do them for a set amount of time with a set amount of weight.
    There's a whole lot that goes into the training.Like I said I don't do anything else,eat train rest and have the right kind of people around me all the time.

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  16. Abide Barefooters
    1. Arizona -...

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    So what are you training for Robin? Thats a lot of work.
  17. Abide Barefooters
    1. Arizona -...

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    I had a race over the weekend one I ran last year as well. I was about 23 minutes slower this year and I am trying to figure out why? This was my first race in Luna's and I am wondering if that had something to do with it? I think the 5 days of lifting before the race took it's toll as well. My legs felt tired the entire race.

    On the other hand I went mountain biking the next day and my legs felt really strong for the 4 hours of riding. It was a demo day and I was riding $4k-$6k bikes so that might have something to do with it. I think the weight training gives me a definite benefit mountain biking but much less running, maybe even detrimental?
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  18. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
    1. Minnesota

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    I can't be sure, but I'm pretty sure strength training my lower body has helped my running, and most importantly, has helped keep me running injury-free, but there's no way of knowing for sure. Since I run and lift for fitness, not performance, I wouldn't give up the lifting even if it did detract from my running, but in your case, since you like to race, you should probably look at what other lifters do before endurance races. The little bit I've looked into it, seems like serious lifters just do sprints and hills, and serious endurance runners don't do heavy lifts. So you're probably not doing yourself any favors as a runner when you do heavy squats and deadlifts. And endurance running, of course, is detrimental to anabolism, right? So your long runs are screwing with your lifting goals.

    Didn't you or Nick post a link to a fellow meathead and his ideas on how to make lifting work with running?

    For this particular race, I would think it was more the fact that you lifted five days straight before the race than lifting in general. Especially for squats, I feel like I need two full days of recovery if it's not going to effect my running. I always try to avoid doing squats the day before a longrun, for example. Lately I've been trying to do speed and/or hills work before or after my squat day, as a double whammy of stimulation for adaptation, but I used to always program the squats two days before my next run, to allow adequate recovery. Now I just do that for the long runs.

    Could also have just been 'one of those days.'

    I bet Robin has some good ideas on this one.

    Myself, I like the idea of being a big guy who can run long, now if I could just be a little faster. This winter I'm thinking of dedicating myself more to lower body lifting and speed work in my running, to see if I can pick up the pace by spring. Long runs when it's cold haven't been that much fun so far, so I'm thinking of blowing them off once it starts to snow, but maybe I'll adapt. So, could be doing a lot of 7-8 mile tempo-ish runs this winter.

    Don't know anything about moutain biking for recreation or races, but I traveled by mountain bike, and your theory makes intuitive sense. You use your thighs a lot more when cycling, right?

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  19. Abide Barefooters
    1. Arizona -...

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    Yep I was just reaffirming what I've know to be true. As for the people who make it work really well they seem to be either genetically gifted and/or have good supplements. I have bad genetics and I'm not willing to go down the other route, I care but not that much.

    It's a difficult mindset to accept, to modify my goals from continuous improvement to a focus on longevity. I'm getting there though. Really trying to stick with things that bring enjoyment, and dumping the rest... like road running.
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  20. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
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    I wish I had the chance to do more trail running. My city routes are usually based on one attractive feature, like a lake or the river, and then figuring out how to get to it while passing through the least unattractive areas. A real trail feels much more like a real route. Oh well, city routes still beat out running on a treadmill.

    It's hard to let go of the idea of progress, and I've still got a lot of room for improvement, but in the end, you're right, longevity is key. The last few weeks I've been feeling a kind of peace. I've tackled most of the longrun routes I've been planning for the last year or so, and the weekend longruns themselves are starting to get easy, both during and afterwards, in terms of recovery. During the week I pretty much run as I please, choosing between a shorter aerobic/tempo run, or hills, or sprints, or some combination thereof, depending on my mood. The daily one-mile run-commutes are just sort of there, as mileage padding, but possibly with some benefit too, especially now with the cold weather, when I motivate to get to where it's warm as quickly as possible and run tempo pace most of the mile. It really feels like a long time now if I go more than one day without at least a short run, and it's gotten pretty routine now to put in 30-40mpw.

    I'd like to get my deadlifts and squats up, but I'm in no hurry, and my bench is adequate. So the ST's just sort of there, as a discipline or practice. No real enjoyment, but I don't mind it, and I always feel good afterwards, and usually at some point during. I think the point you made a few months ago about lifting heavy helped focus my thoughts on st, and then I followed it up with some more reading. Now I feel like I have a really good handle on what I want/need to do, theory-wise, and feel more comfortable changing things up as the mood strikes me. Eventually I might want to try some of the more technical lifts that I've always avoided.

    The only things I'm a little bit anxious about improving immediately, or in the short term, are my pace, one, and then my conditioning, especially the plyometrics stuff. That's probably where I'll be making a push this winter. I think box jumps in particular will be a big help in my running. If I can be running aerobically at 9mm pace by the beginning of spring, I'll be pretty satisfied.

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