Maffetone Method...what's your experience with it?

I think the elite runners all do a base building stage and they may do some faster running as part of that albeit at slower paces than later on in their speed building stages. We are not elite runners...not even close so you still need to run at relative slow pace that insures a good recovery afterwards. So how do you run slow and enjoy your running.... that is at the heart of this really.

I think having running courses that are hilly or some hills helps and even better is you can find some trails to run in regularly...a slow trail run is still better than a flat easy fast road run...break it up. Variety is the most important thing really as it will be easier to stay consistent with your day to day running. I wouldn't push the 20% speedier running until you get your running base up to a stable week in week out regular running distance.
 
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I think the elite runners all do a base building stage and they may do some faster running as part of that albeit at slower paces than later on in their speed building stages. We are not elite runners...not even close so you still need to run at relative slow pace that insures a good recovery afterwards. So how do you run slow and enjoy your running.... that is at the heart of this really.

I think having running courses that are hilly or some hills helps and even better is you can find some trails to run in regularly...a slow trail run is still better than a flat easy fast road run...break it up. Variety is the most important thing really as it will be easier to stay consistent with your day to day running. I wouldn't push the 20% speedier running until you get your running base up to a stable week in week out regular running distance.
Thanks for the feedback Mokaman. I have incorporated more variety this spring--hills, and tomorrow will be my second trail run--but I'm really impatient to run faster (the hills are great for that). Yesterday I pushed the pace a bit for three miles, on flat concrete and asphalt, and my form felt smoother and my landings lighter. I assume my cadence was up, and so many studies seem to indicate that stride length and cadence are important, and the quickest way for me to get there seems to be by dropping from a 10-minute-mile pace to a 8-to-9-minute pace. So I'm divided between that (along with anaerobic weight training) and the benefits others are reporting from following a strict Maffetone base-building regimen. I think I may spend a few weeks trying to keep getting faster and see where I am by the end of June. As Amby Burfoot put it, "there's only one way guaranteed to make you a faster runner: Train faster" (http://peakperformance.runnersworld...ats-the-perfect-running-form-and-whos-got-it/).
 
Yah, I guess the question is if elite endurance runners ever go through an exclusively base-building period. Nothing that I've come across so far suggests they do. I would also be interested in seeing some outside source confirm that during the base-building phase of Maff training, anything above your threshold will be detrimental to one's ability to build the base. Hope I'm not beating a dead horse here, I'm just curious.

I'd be curious as to how critical Maffetone thinks it is to stay below the chosen threshold as well.

Personally, I figure that there's got to be an potential error of one or two bpm in the reading, plus variation in the HR itself. Even in the base building period, if my HR spiked quicker than I could slow my pace when I came to a hill or turned a corner into the wind, I wasn't too concerned as long as the HR stayed generally within about 5% of the target. I was more concerned that the average was within target range and how long I spent over the threshold.
 
I'd be curious as to how critical Maffetone thinks it is to stay below the chosen threshold as well.
That's my main concern. If it's not that important, then I'm fine with two one-hour Maff runs a week, road or trail, plus three 30-minute rowing sessions at low intensity, while at the same time doing one hills/higher intensity run, plus anaerobic weights 3-4 times a week. I'll probably keep doing that, and maybe even switch out one of the long runs for interval work on a nearby track, for a month or even until this fall, and then see where I'm at. I would think winter would be an excellent time to forgo the hills/speed work and concentrate on pure Maff running, if I can keep up the weights at the same time.
 
I think I am starting to transition out of maff. I've been doing slow pace since last fall and and havent done a single speed run until just recently. Since I want to do some 5 and 10ks I'm going to start introducing more and more faster paced training. I'll go back to exclusive maff right after my last race of the fall. Plus with these warmer temps my HR has gone up a lot. To do maff now I am back to like 13 minutes plus. I thought maybe it was just the one time from the stress from my shift change (I had switched to nightshift and ran the next day) but I've put in a couple more runs since back on days and about the same results. But flopping shifts 12hrs back and forth has got to be part of it, IDK. I'll have to run in the early morning or on a cool day to see if it drops back down to verify the correlation.
 
it's actually called the lydiard method, just with a heart rate monitor. maffetone didn't come up with this on his own. blind boy posted a video on here about how some of the top kenyons run. all slow easy runs. i din't wathc the whole thing. maff's method is nothing new, just a different name.
 
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Yah, I guess the question is if elite endurance runners ever go through an exclusively base-building period. Nothing that I've come across so far suggests they do. I would also be interested in seeing some outside source confirm that during the base-building phase of Maff training, anything above your threshold will be detrimental to one's ability to build the base. Hope I'm not beating a dead horse here, I'm just curious.
BL, I've read numerous articles by coaches and runners in Runners World and other such magazines which extol the benefits of an exclusive base building phase. Of course that's not definitive proof of its benefits or even that most elite athletes do so but it is suggestive of such.

As for whether or not any anaerobic training during base building will be detrimental to building the base, I admit that this seems to be a peculiarly Maff based idea which I have not heard elsewhere.
 
it's actually called the lydiard method, just with a heart rate monitor. maffetone didn't come up with this on his own. blind boy posted a video on here about how some of the top kenyons run. all slow easy runs. i din't wathc the whole thing. maff's method is nothing new, just a different name.
Actually LHR training methods have been used by many different coaches so you are right to say Maffetone didn't come up with the concept of LHR training on his own. However, the total package of Lydiard is different to Maffetone just as it is different to Hadd etc etc etc. So it would be incorrect to say it's called the Lydiard method.
 
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BL, I've read numerous articles by coaches and runners in Runners World and other such magazines which extol the benefits of an exclusive base building phase. Of course that's not definitive proof of its benefits or even that most elite athletes do so but it is suggestive of such.

As for whether or not any anaerobic training during base building will be detrimental to building the base, I admit that this seems to be a peculiarly Maff based idea which I have not heard elsewhere.

And I have seen it used extensively in other sports as well. I have a winter training manual for the bike that I've used for a couple of years called "The Black Book" based around use of a turbo trainer. In this you stick to 1 hour HR capped turbo sessions and longer, HR capped road sessions for 4-8 weeks depending when you start, before including one progressive interval session (it gets harder week by week), and then starting to emulate more racing conditions.

So this kind of programme is out there all around if you look for them.
 
Thanks for the long response Pilotrunner. One question: How long had you been running previous to adopting the Maf method, and did you do speed/hill/tempo work then?

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I was out ensuring the planet will remain safe for democracy.

I've been running for 37 years. I started after running barefoot for about a year. Since I stopped running competitively in school (ahem... 30ish years ago...) I don't do specific speed or hill or tempo runs per se. Occasionally, I will encounter a hill or pick up my pace for a minute then recover and repeat, but nothing specific of which I train toward.

Big picture is that I have seen significant gains since beginning the program. I am curious if I would see more if I ran 180-age instead of 140max, but I can't stand running that slowly.

Cheers.
 
Hadd and Mafetone even pfitzinger all stem from Lydiard.... they all have various modifications, various things that they highlight. IMHO none is intrinsically better or worse than any other, what gives me optimal results may not suit the guy running next to me, be it phsiologically, or from a 'training time' budget point of view.

FWIW i also think looking at an elites current training regime can be misleading... after all, they have many many years of high quality training that they have built their current form on. So how they train now might not be the best indicator of what would work well for a 'man off the street' who wants to see the most bang for his buck from his training.

Personally i find the mixed tempo running in a Lydiard style base building phase a little more interesting than Mafetone, but thats just me. Either will see improvements in your Aerobic Base especially if it was poorly developed.
 
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BL, I've read numerous articles by coaches and runners in Runners World and other such magazines which extol the benefits of an exclusive base building phase. Of course that's not definitive proof of its benefits or even that most elite athletes do so but it is suggestive of such.

As for whether or not any anaerobic training during base building will be detrimental to building the base, I admit that this seems to be a peculiarly Maff based idea which I have not heard elsewhere.
Thanks PKFFW, both points are really helpful to know.
 
Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I was out ensuring the planet will remain safe for democracy.

I've been running for 37 years. I started after running barefoot for about a year. Since I stopped running competitively in school (ahem... 30ish years ago...) I don't do specific speed or hill or tempo runs per se. Occasionally, I will encounter a hill or pick up my pace for a minute then recover and repeat, but nothing specific of which I train toward.

Big picture is that I have seen significant gains since beginning the program. I am curious if I would see more if I ran 180-age instead of 140max, but I can't stand running that slowly.

Cheers.

Thank for the reply Pilotrunner, and for keeping us safe . . .

My younger brother was an F16 pilot, perhaps you could encourage him to run too?

Anyway, this thread has been very useful. Thanks to everyone for putting up with my novice Maffetonic questions. I think I know what to do now.
 
"Hadd and Mafetone even pfitzinger all stem from Lydiard.... they all have various modifications, various things that they highlight. IMHO none is intrinsically better or worse than any other, what gives me optimal results may not suit the guy running next to me, be it phsiologically, or from a 'training time' budget point of view."

Thanks for the clarification KiwiRunning, I'll have to investigate this geneaology a bit more. As an academic, I like knowing about the history of an idea, or set of ideas.

"FWIW i also think looking at an elites current training regime can be misleading... after all, they have many many years of high quality training that they have built their current form on. So how they train now might not be the best indicator of what would work well for a 'man off the street' who wants to see the most bang for his buck from his training."

Thanks for pointing that out.

"Personally i find the mixed tempo running in a Lydiard style base building phase a little more interesting ... "

That's the direction I'm leaning
 
Am 35 y.o. (MAHR = 145 beats/min?), taken up running since 2010. Have been going at the most HM distance but on and off due to injuries. More actively running since Feb 2012.
I typically run
tues - 60mins (easy)
thurs - (up to) 90mins (speedwork/ tempo)
sat - 60 mins (easy)
sun - LSD (race pace)
following a HM program from Runkeeper.
At that stage, heard a little about Maffetone so typically ran (erroneously) between 145-150 on slow days and 150-160 on tempo & LSD days. Managed to complete a HM in June (quads cramped in last 200m) and another in Aug (no cramp after changing hydration/ electrolyte plan).
Finally got down to reading TBBoEaR in Aug and changed all my runs to be easy within 135-145. Few weeks after adjusted to 135-142 as i kept creeping over (about 10% of run would be above MAHR of 145). Signed up to do my first FM in mid-Nov 2012.
Seems to work as I currently can complete a 36mile week (inclusive of a 16mile LSD) without feeling exhausted or having severe muscles aches the days after.
For the last 1 month before my race, have switched from base building to include speed and hill work on thursdays and race pace work (HR 145-160max) for the second half of my Sunday LSD's. (Will continue concentrate on base building for 4-6months after this race and aim for time next year)
Questions:
1) When my HR creeps above my MAHR, I usually slow down or walk. Within less than 30secs my HR will drop to about 135 and I will pick up my pace again. Same when I am doing race pace during LSD's. HR creep usually occurs after a sustained pace for about 10mins. Does this mean I am going to fast?
2) During LSD's, HR creep tends to occur more rapidly even at slow pace after the 2hr mark. is this a sign of exhaustion/ dehydration? (i sip every 10mins after the first half-and hour and try to ingest about 200-300 calories/ 1L fluids per hour).
3) This being my first FM, I intend to be conservative and plan on completion rather than time. As such, i expect my finishing time to be within 4:30hrs to 5:30hrs. I plan to run the 1st 2:30-3:00 at 135-142 HR and the last two hours at race pace (145-160HR). For race pace, i usually do a run (10mins) -walk (1-2mins plus water or if HR drops to 135-140) -run (10mins). Is this too safe?
4) As the race will start at 2am, any advice on nutrition and sleep plan on race day so that i can avoid GI problems?
Thanks in advance.
ps. Since Feb 2012 - lost 12kg's in weight, 6%-7% body fat.
 
1) the longer you go, the hotter you get. you have to continuously slow down. it's part of what's so frustrating about the method.

2)same as 1.

3) i almost never keep my HR below maf max. i always get so excited and nervous at the start that my HR soars. so if you can, good for you. for that long of a race keeping it low will be good and speeding up on the second half should work out for you. if it's too conservative or too fast only you will be able to decide. 160 i could sustain for 2 hours. can you? if so should be good.

4) sorry. no experience with that. 2 am? that's early. look on barefootrunninguniversity blog for advice on nutrition and check out other ultra runners sites' as well.



good luck.
 
an update.

No Sleep + race anxiety + extremely hot, humid, windless night + 2am witching hour start time + bloated guts (on hindsight due to ill advised protein drink 2.5hrs before race) = heart rate 20 beats higher than normal right at the start of the race. There goes my entire race place right at the start :D. Fatigued at 32km and walked the last 6km to avoid cramping. Another 5km more and would surely have bonked.

Given myself another 8months till the next race. Time to reboot and experiment with a blend of Maffetone and Lydiard and see how it goes this time.
 
well that sucks. you have to always experiment to see what works. i drink a protein shake and don't have the bloating problem. keep at it. it takes time. a lot of time.
 
Thought I'd share my 2p worth.

As a 32 year old I was in very bad shape, 5'10" weighing 235lbs, in my younger days played football and squash, but even as kid I was a poor runner and only ran for the bus or playing football. So on my 32nd birthday I went for a jog, I did 5 laps round my back garden ( 1 lap approx 100M )! I progressed really well, I eventually adventured out of my garden, about 2 years later I was running/jogging 100 to 120 miles per week my weight was at 163-167 lbs and I felt great, no injuries, never sore as I built up mileage really slow, building mileage slowly wasn't planned just the way things panned out. Never ran any races, but started playing squash again, couldn't believe it I was beating guys who were technically so much better than me, even after very long points I was recovering very quickly, playing 3 matches in a row on Sunday morning, over 3 hours!

BUT at 36 I still had a slight belly that just wouldn't shift, a good friend of mine who is national level athlete advised me to start some weight training and interval training. Over the next year or so I'm pumping Iron and addicted to running hills, taking my heart rate over 200 on a regular basis, I'm now at 170lbs and no belly fat, mileage is down to 50 miles per week, I look a lot better, twice as strong as I was, but started to lose more playing squash as lacking aerobic fitness, getting injured, getting some stupid cold or virus at least 3 times a year. Last 3 to 4 years have been painful, every time I seemed to make some progress I would get ill or injured. Feb 2015 I get the Flu, in bed 4 days, I'm thinking how the hell has it gone so wrong? I'm at 210lbs fitness is crap, I think back how I started in 2005, just jogging, built up to over 100 miles per week, never sore, full of energy etc.. So I started again in March, first jog was 3km, now jogging 10k a day, weight has come down to 191lbs, feeling a lot better, energy levels are the best they have been for a few years. Two weeks ago I read about the Maffetone method, and thought that is similar to what I did, bought the The Big Book online and I know the training works, as when I was doing my runs 2006 to 2008/9 my heart rate was around 138-145 which is very close to what it should have been at that time. Enjoying my jogging again, I know it's a long way back, but expect to be fitter and healthier than ever, and don't expect to be doing any anaerobic work outs any time soon, will go back to squash when I'm ready to give some pay back and keep you guys posted on my progression.
 

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