I want more speed

[JosephTree]

Using elites as models just would be wrong for me. First, they work way too hard at running and take it way too seriously. Their recovery/stress cycle would destroy me.
Oh, and they run way too fast.

Besides, I only just started running a bit more than 2 years ago at 53 years old. I don't know any elites who could say the same.

 

[Sid]

Geez Sid, you're spending likes today...

They're free. Why be stingy? Just trying to support those who support the discussion (slightly off topic as it may be)

 

[devilnuts]

Using elites as models just would be wrong for me.

Besides, these days it seems more and more of those "elite" athletes do things that I would not recommend anyone doing. HGH, steroids, blood doping, usw. hehe

 

[Bare Lee]

Using elites as models just would be wrong for me. First, they work way too hard at running and take it way too seriously. Their recovery/stress cycle would destroy me.
Oh, and they run way too fast.

Besides, I only just started running a bit more than 2 years ago at 53 years old. I don't know any elites who could say the same.

Please note that I qualified my endorsement by saying that we need to adjust their techniques and training protocols to our abilities and goals. If you just enjoy long runs and have no interest in speed work, then drop it, by all means, for example. But it may be of interest to see what, if anything, they do to improve their form. For example: Do they consciously bend their knees or manipulate their cadence? It was something of a revelation for me to find out that there is no such thing as barefoot running form, just good form, and that elite trainers and biomechanists were able to describe it quite well, because they've been doing it since way before 2009 (see Sid's 5000 clip in the first post of this thread for good 'bare form'). And when I started doing weights thirty plus years ago, I read the Weider books and mags (Muscle & Fitness) my brother had. I didn't aspire to be a bodybuilder, but there was a lot of useful info in there on proper form and different training protocols, like exercising complementary muscle groups on same or alternate days, big muscle versus small muscle exercises, high rep versus low rep, the 48-hour recovery rule for anaerobic exercise, etc.
Basically pick out a body type or ability and see how the pros do it, then adjust to your schedule, ability, age, blah, blah, blah . . .

 

[Bare Lee]

They're free. Why be stingy? Just trying to support those who support the discussion (slightly off topic as it may be)

Yah, I do the same. Just kidding, as usual.

 

[Bare Lee]

Besides, these days it seems more and more of those "elite" athletes do things that I would not recommend anyone doing. HGH, steroids, blood doping, usw. hehe

What? You're in Hawaii and not doping?

 

[Bare Lee]

So, I tried driving through the hips this morning. I really tried to focus on waiting until my heels made contact with the ground before pushing though. No abrasions, and I was able to keep my form good throughout my usual 6 miles, whereas I used to start slouching at the end.

Peak Performance - "think about pushing back as hard as you can on each step. Use the buttocks and hamstrings to do so, very much the way you might push out hard from a set of starting blocks. Run from your hips"

I'm feeling like I've used some different muscles today. Definitely can tell that I've worked out the 'buttocks'. I'll try giving this new adaptation a few weeks, then go for another PR when I'm feeling plucky.

I ran some intervals down at the local track yesterday, and feel sore on the outside of my foot, like you. First time this has happened, but it's also the first time I've run fast (relatively speaking) on a dirt track. I'll try the technique that has worked for you next time I do intervals.

 

[JosephTree]

Lee, Sure, I agree that the "experts," those folks who apply their whole attention to the art and practice of running, have much for me to learn. I just don't want to pick up any of their bad habits. It's probably more a matter of a B or C type personality (me) viewing those A types with a touch of fear and loathing.

 

[Bare Lee]

Even more than for learning, I think the elite stuff functions well as a bs filter for all the half-baked notions floating around in the bfr orbit. I know I was taken in for a while.

A COMPLETELY NEW WAY TO RUN.

Not.

It sounds counterintuitive, but reading up on the pro stuff a bit has allowed me to obey my just run instinct better, because it dispels so many of the ideas in the rules-based approach(es), or at least their misapplication to recreational running.

The other main benefit has been learning to vary my running more, which hadn't occurred to me as a just run runner.

The rest is just good stuff to be aware of while I slowly tweak my form and capabilities.

 

[devilnuts]

What? You're in Hawaii and not doping?

Nope. haha. That is one thing I won't learn from the pros. I can watch and try things out that they do to see if it helps me, but that is one line I won't cross. haha

 

[barefootandagile]

Did a little speed running today with the team I coach. 6mi easy run followed by 4 x 80m strides. Always one kid that wants to race. Was good fun as usual.

 

[kozz]

In the future I'll remember not to mention "pose."

Religious debates aside, I think the key to developing a fast form is mainly just to run fast. You'll always start out less efficient at a faster pace, and your form will evolve to be more efficient, making the pace easier and eventually sustainable.

 

[DNEchris]

In the future I'll remember not to mention "pose."

Religious debates aside, I think the key to developing a fast form is mainly just to run fast. You'll always start out less efficient at a faster pace, and your form will evolve to be more efficient, making the pace easier and eventually sustainable.

The key for me was just to run!

I started fairly slow and, without any attempt to "run faster", I found myself with a cruising pace of about 7.30 mm and a recent top pace of 5.50 mm. I'll happily tool around at 10 or 11 mm on a group run but, left to my own devices, 7.30 finds my heart rate just above my MAF rate and I do enough group runs that there is plenty of recovery time.

I don't do "workouts".

 

[rbondi]

I think using the elites as a model for aspiring elites is a good approach. For me, I need to model someone in there 50s that was slow and now is less slow. Wait, that would be me. Never mind.

 

[Sid]

I think the key to developing a fast form is mainly just to run fast. You'll always start out less efficient at a faster pace, and your form will evolve to be more efficient, making the pace easier and eventually sustainable.

I'm not sure. For example, practicing a bad golf swing over and over, just makes things worse.
“Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.” -Vince Lombardi

I think that sometimes, a conscious effort to adjust form can be helpful. Certainly, the abrasions and slouching form towards the end of my runs were an indication that there was room for improvement. I'm going to see how the modifications work out over the next few weeks.

It seems that even the pros can use some help every once in a while.
"Glen Mills: Usain is an extremely gifted athlete. When I started working with him, one of the things that stood out like a sore thumb was his poor mechanics. He was running behind the centre of balance. This resulted in a negative force against his forward drive and it was affecting other areas."

 

[kozz]

I'm not sure. For example, practicing a bad golf swing over and over, just makes things worse.
“Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.” -Vince Lombardi

I think that sometimes, a conscious effort to adjust form can be helpful. Certainly, the abrasions and slouching form towards the end of my runs were an indication that there was room for improvement. I'm going to see how the modifications work out over the next few weeks.

It seems that even the pros can use some help every once in a while.
"Glen Mills: Usain is an extremely gifted athlete. When I started working with him, one of the things that stood out like a sore thumb was his poor mechanics. He was running behind the centre of balance. This resulted in a negative force against his forward drive and it was affecting other areas."

A golf swing is an unnatural movement that must be taught. Many of the best runners have had form that no coach would have tolerated, but it still worked. Zatopek and Ngugi in particular.

In any case, whether you're making conscious adjustments or not, running at or above your max pace is a very effective way to implement them. Near or above threshold, you can't cheat by trying harder. You can maintain the pace only through improved efficiency.

 

[devilnuts]

I had coaches that tried to "fix" each runner's form. I became a firm believer that there is no one "correct" way to run. What works for one person might not work for another. Supporting my ankles so I don't pronate killed my knee and hip, yet I spent countless hours working on trying to run what was "correct" and it wasn't really making me better. So mostly I have learned to take what other people say works for them and test here and there. Some of it works, some of it doesn't. Nothing against them, they just have different mechanics than I do. My way isn't better; their way isn't better.

One thing that I did do that used to help me get faster was to lengthen my stride. To do this I would run the same stretch (we had a 3/4 mile stretch for "sprints") and I would count my steps. Each time we ran that, I tried to make it in fewer and fewer strides. Of course, that was in shoes so over-reaching was somewhat tolerable because my heel was cushioned a bit. I have attempted to do the same thing barefoot. It is extremely important to have proper foot placement and gradually stretch out your stride...that's not a "correct" vs. "incorrect" form, that is no injury to heel vs. injury to heel. I would recommend doing it on a stretch that is softer than asphalt the first couple of times because you WILL end up heel striking a few times and it WILL hurt. But now that I've done it a bit, I can definitely tell a big difference in my times (especially on shorter runs) when I stride out and when I don't.

 

[barefootandagile]

Devil,

In what ways did your coaches try to fix runners? Did they have any success? I get the feeling that you recent them more than find what they did to be helpful in any way. As I coach I offer general and specific advice to the group but as issues pop up with individuals I give more specific advice to prevent or heal an injured body part.

 

[barefootandagile]

Koss,

""" A golf swing is an unnatural movement that must be taught""

My son is fascinated with golf at the moment. He is 4yrs. He hasn't asked me yet to teach him how to hit the ball with his club or his baseball bat. Seems to be quite NATURAL for him.

 

[Bare Lee]

The key for me was just to run!

I started fairly slow and, without any attempt to "run faster", I found myself with a cruising pace of about 7.30 mm and a recent top pace of 5.50 mm. I'll happily tool around at 10 or 11 mm on a group run but, left to my own devices, 7.30 finds my heart rate just above my MAF rate and I do enough group runs that there is plenty of recovery time.

I don't do "workouts".

I think this is true of just about everything; if you keep doing it you'll improve. About 10 years ago, I ran shod five miles three times a week for more than two years, without a thought about technique or numbers, and steadily improved the whole time. Different training protocols or workouts are designed to either speed up this process or get you beyond what you would be capable of doing by just doing it. Whether or not it's your thing, only we as individuals can decide. This time around, which is just my second bout of truly consistent running, the only bit I've really integrated, or am trying to integrate, into my runs, is some intervals/fartleks and hills, but I find them enjoyable, so it's no chore. Most of my running is still just running out-and-backs, my preference by far.