I feel like a traitor-- I have to start shoe shopping again

[Norm Deplume]

I've begun shopping for standard "minimalist" running shoes. I just need more protection under my feet from the cold-- I've been having troubles with the Raynaud's on the bottoms of my feet already, and it's only October. There's just no way that the VFFs or moccasins will cut it when it's actually cold out. in December or January. Stupid Illinois winters. :angry:

I'm going to order some Brooks Mach 12 and see how they work out. On the plus side, they're pretty purple. But dammit, I'd rather not wear shoes.

 

[saypay45]

I have a pair of MT100s for

I have a pair of MT100s for when it's just too ridiculous outside. There is no shame...

 

[sloutre]

Here in NJ it's not even

Here in NJ it's not even really cold. It was in the low 40s for my last 2 runs. This morning I ran in the rain and after 5 min the bottom of my feet hurt. I ran the same 5k route last week, on wet concrete/asphalt but the rain had stopped, and I had no problems at all. This morning I had to wear my leather 2nd skin sandals.

On Saturday morning I ran 8km and had to wear the sandals 2 times for a few hundred yards to get over rough areas. And this was in the middle/end of the run, I had fully warmed up already. I usually have no problem on those areas but on Saturday even fairly smooth concrete felt painful. What's going on?

I expected to feel the bite of the cold when the concrete gets really cold but that's not what I felt. It didn't feel cold, it felt rough.

I cannot wear minimal shoes like you Norm because my form suffers too much. I don't have enough miles of barefoot running to be able run properly with minimal shoes. In fact, running with any kind of shoes other than my sandals is hard on my body...and my sandals developped a hole this morning. I will see if I can duct tape of if I have to make a new pair

Do you think it hurts because my feet cannot relax enough in the cold? Or could it be because the day before those 2 runs I was wearing closed sweaty shoes and it softened my feet? It cannot be just because of the rain, the ground was dry on Saturday and it hurt, and when I ran on wet surfaces before I didn't have problem.

New Jersey is not that cold. I was hoping (and still hope) to be able to run barefoot most of the winter. Are there people out there who run barefoot in the winter and can suggest ways to prepare my feet? Or at least ways to determine the source of the problem?



Norm, you can try taking off your shoes for the last (or first) segment of each of your runs so you can have a little bit of barefoot freedom everytime.

 

[fetish4running]

I think someone said the Teva

I think someone said the Teva Protons are super warm...it might've been SillyC.

 

[stomper]

norm, have you tried neoprene

norm, have you tried neoprene aqua socks? super cheap and extremely warm. Quality of construction varies, but the "Oxide" ones from Sports Authority worked well for me for running. Take the insole out.

 

[Norm Deplume]

stomper wrote: norm, have you

norm, have you tried neoprene aqua socks? super cheap and extremely warm. Quality of construction varies, but the "Oxide" ones from Sports Authority worked well for me for running. Take the insole out.

I really need more thickness in the sole than water shoes give me, I think. In the winter I have had to preheat my shoes, and hope that they stay warm enough until my circulation takes over and warms up my feet (at least a mile or so of running), or they go numb, then burn and hurt when the feeling comes back into them. Aqua socks, VFFs, etc., have a very thin sole, so they don't keep the heat long enough, I've found. I just don't see any other way than to sacrifice ground feel when the street temp drops below about 50 degrees. :sad:

 

[Norm Deplume]

sloutre wroteo you think it

Do you think it hurts because my feet cannot relax enough in the cold? Or could it be because the day before those 2 runs I was wearing closed sweaty shoes and it softened my feet?

It's hard to say, but I hope you find a solution that works for you. It's times like these when I'm jealous of those people living in Southern California. Not that I could afford a house there, but at least I could run all year round.

 

[twinkletoes]

Hi Norm,I share your

Hi Norm,

I share your struggle with Raynauds- and it is a very disconcerting condition. Last Saturday my toes went numb just from being BF around house/errands and persisted on and off for hours, even though the temp increased from 45 in the a.m. to 70+ mid-day. Finally warmed up after a 2 mile BF walk in the afternoon.

I do run in a pair of cheap flats (for long runs) and with VFF's intermittently and I feel no shame. I use the VFFs primarily to warm up my feet and get across the 1/4 mi of chip and seal- then I take them off and carry them while I run the older asphalt until I have to go home. By then, my feet are super toasty.

I will be looking forward to hearing what you come up with that works.

 

[Liesl]

It is a horrible condition to

It is a horrible condition to have, I'm sorry you and twinkle have to deal with this. For some who may be wondering... Raynauds is more than just cold feet that take a while to warm up... so as for most people - usual methods used to warm up the feet would be much more successful than someone with this condition. Once you have an attack, it can take quite a while to recover sometimes and so it is best to just try to avoid having one altogether. Some days/weeks during the winter, you may just have to sit out and wait till there is a warmer day to run Repeated attacks can damage the blood vessels and that can be irreversible.

My son (15) was diagnosed with Raynauds last winter and so I read anything and everything I could get my hands on to study all about his condition. His is primary and it is a complete mystery as to how he got it... except we can only assume that with the combination of an extremely cold winter (for Texas) and him going running on some very cold nights with my husband might have been what brought it on. He had a really rough winter adjusting to it and he stopped running, but he was doing Taekwondo which he preferred anyway and that has helped him to stay active (but indoors). He has had relief throughout the summer and is doing much better, but we are dreading the cold weather as he has to dress very warm and wear very warm shoes/slippers all day long, sometimes gloves on his hands all day too.

I think this is a condition that runners (barefoot or not) should be made aware of, because you can possibly get this from exposing yourself to very cold temperatures without proper protection. And once you get it, according to our physician... you will always have it. It happens to different people in various ways, but I will not be putting myself at risk this winter because I know now what can happen. Does not mean it will happen to everyone, but just know that it is possible. I don't want to sound like an alarmist, but I really wish we could have known all about it before this happened to our son, it was not hereditary in his case... we don't know anyone else with it.

Listen to your instincts, if you think you would be just fine barefoot on very cold surfaces, then you'll probably be fine. But if you think you should protect yourself with something warm, especially if you have Raynauds, then you should do so.
I've been running barefoot, but trying to also run on some days with VFF's just to get used to having something on my feet and before winter strikes us here, I am going to try to learn to run in a minimalist shoe with warm socks on, I really like the Thorlos I used when I first started running (with shoes). It might be a struggle to find shoes I'm comfortable with, but I'm going to try.

Clearly there are many people who have no trouble at all warming up and staying warm - even running barefoot in frigid temperatures, but there are also many who maybe shouldn't. I am pretty sure even the Native Americans and others who did not have modern day shoes like we have now probably protected their feet from ice, snow and very cold temps... and then they probably had some very strong women and men in their tribes that would forgo the coverings - but I am going to presume that had I lived 300 years ago in this land, I would have likely chosen to be as warm as possible, that's just me

So don't feel like a traitor LOL Your health matters, got to take care of those feet so that you can run for the rest of your life If you have Raynauds, I'd think a combination of keeping your core as warm as you can as well as your feet will be much safer than running barefoot in the winter.

 

[Norm Deplume]

Liesl, thanks for explaining

Liesl, thanks for explaining Raynaud's to people. I've dealt with it since high school (although it's gotten worse in the last few years), and sometimes I forget that not everyone understands what it really is. I had an attack of it last week, just from being at home. I was doing some cleaning, and due to the numbness, I had to sit down and wait it out, after putting on a second pair of socks.

 

[twinkletoes]

Great explanation Liesl! My

Great explanation Liesl! My step-mom also has it because of an auto-immune disease and she has always warned me to avoid the onset as much as possible due to long-term damage. The longer those digits are white, the harder it is to get blood flow back each time and immersion in hot water is the most dangerous method to use. I've had it since high school too and I was always miserable toward the end of a ski day until I finally just decided it wasn't worth it when I was about 27. Running I can't give up though...

It has gotten much worse for me too in the past few years Norm, and it concerns me for the long-term. I am hoping that the more I run/walk BF, the better the circulation will be due to reflexology/stimulation. In the meantime, I discovered that drinking hot veggie/chicken broth is a crazy-fast way to warm up my core. I think it's the sodium? I've also recently started carrying hot water with emergenC in my hand-helds on cool mornings and I drink warm/hot water immediately after a run (or otherwise) which has helped. I already have quite low blood pressure and for some reason it generally hits immediately after a run- wondering if you have noticed any patterns?

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Thank you so much for

Thank you so much for explaining all that, Liesl. We should make this the Reynaulds' thread to go to. Maybe you guys need a Reynauld's Club like we MTers have?

When I eat spicy foods, I get a rush of heat. Would foods like that help you guys?

 

[twinkletoes]

I eat more spicy food than

I eat more spicy food than anyone I know- it only heats up my head!

 

[Barefoot TJ]

I always feel flushed, like I

I always feel flushed, like I have to sit down in front of a fan. I feel hot all over. I guess horseradish sauce wouldn't work either then.

 

[twinkletoes]

I love love horseradish but

I love love horseradish but haven't paid attention to my hands or feet when ingesting it- but then I usually am drinking it in a super spicy bloody mary! haha

Hey, I'm having sushi tonight and will test my cold toes after the wasabi kicks in.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Alcohol makes me feel hot

Alcohol makes me feel hot too. It's not good for Rosacea, neither is spicy foods, but hey, you gotta live a little, right?

 

[Barefoot Cassie]

Norm, are the trail soles

Norm, are the trail soles from the soft star run amoc's thick enough to help you out? I don't have Reynaulds so I don't know what you are going through but if that 5mm plus some wool socks would work plus if you get the regular and not the lites then it is a solid leather upper (would help to keep more heat in).



I have heard good things about the shoes....as soon as pay day comes around again I'm getting a pair.

 

[Longboard]

I've been experimenting with

I've been experimenting with combining horse radish with hot pepper sauce.

The horse radish gives you the full-blown sinus rush, while the capsacin in the chillies does the mouth/lips/tongue/head-sweat thing real fine.

No longer will I be satisfied with just one or the other!

BTW, I also am plagued with Reynaud's syndrome, as is my father.

Fingers turn white when the body's core feels a chill, so I have learned to bundle up in order to keep the feet bare.

It works, because Reynaud's is an attempt to keep the body warm by deciding to sacrafice the extremities, so we can stop it before it starts by keeping the core warm.

My father participated in an experiment at a medical school back in the 70's using bio feedback to control Reynauds.

It worked just fine during the training, and they wrote him up in the results section of the published study.

Problem was while outside in real life away from the lab, the 100% focus on opening up the arteries supplying his hands and feet was impossible, and he even ended up with frostbite once while x/c skiing.

Real life turns out to be WAY different than the laboratory setting as is usualy the case.

The only thing I have found that will restore blood flow to fingers is to swing the arms vigorously in circles allowing centrifugal force to provide blood flow through the constricted vessles.

The feet while walking/running can also be force-fed blood just through those actions themselves.

For those of you (95% of males, 92% of females) that DON'T have this problem, think about this:

If I wear mittens, not gloves, of the warmest variety made, complete with a Gore-tex outer shell, a synthetic insulating layer, and a wicking inner liner, and go outside in 55 degrees with just a shirt, my fingers turn white and numb inside the mittens!

That's how weird this Renaud's syndrome/sign/response is!

 

[Norm Deplume]

Barefoot TJ wrote:Alcohol

Alcohol makes me feel hot too. It's not good for Rosacea, neither is spicy foods, but hey, you gotta live a little, right?

:beer: makes me happy, so sometimes it wins against the better advice of my dermatologist.

It's a real hoot that I can get flushed from wearing too thick a sweater or eating vindaloo (the rosacea) but still have numb, white feet at the same time. nothing like having two opposing vascular issues in one body! (But I remain thankful, because there are thousands of WAY worse chrinic conditions to have)

 

[jschwab]

Sorry you have to deal with

Sorry you have to deal with this.I wore my Protons comfortably with wool socks today to work for the first time. I can see how they would not really be enough protection with Reynaud's. I hope the Brooks work!