How to cut 2 min & 20 secs off a 5k
- Thread starter Abide
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Run faster. Seriously
Run faster.
Seriously though, cut 2:20 off of what? It's a little different if we're talking cutting two minutes off 35 or 2 minutes off 15. My knee-jerk reaction is simply that you should run more and do it slowly but then again, I have no idea how much you're running now. To me, nothing beats a solid base for running fast. If you can provide a goal time and a sample training week I'll gladly throw some not-so-wild guesses out there.
Run faster.
Seriously though, cut 2:20 off of what? It's a little different if we're talking cutting two minutes off 35 or 2 minutes off 15. My knee-jerk reaction is simply that you should run more and do it slowly but then again, I have no idea how much you're running now. To me, nothing beats a solid base for running fast. If you can provide a goal time and a sample training week I'll gladly throw some not-so-wild guesses out there.
I wish I could, that is
I wish I could, that is virtually balls to the wall. So this would get me just under 20 minutes.
Not really on a training schedule, I am running 4-5 days a week. I do some interval training, but only when crossfit tells me too. I was hoping to replace some of my "junk miles" with faster, shorter and harder runs.
I wish I could, that is virtually balls to the wall. So this would get me just under 20 minutes.
Not really on a training schedule, I am running 4-5 days a week. I do some interval training, but only when crossfit tells me too
. I was hoping to replace some of my "junk miles" with faster, shorter and harder runs.
Intervals! go run 440's or
Intervals! go run 440's or whatever they are called now at the track. I did them last night and about wiped myself out.
Intervals! go run 440's or whatever they are called now at the track. I did them last night and about wiped myself out.
Abide, are you familiar with
Abide, are you familiar with the theories behind aerobic base training? For most people the answer lies there, simply running more at intensities comfortably below full speed. Long, slow runs are going to do more for your time than short and fast ever could in the long run. Sure, intervals and other anaerobic stuff will make you a lot faster quickly once you start doing them but the human body has limited anaerobic capacity and it will only take a couple of months of focused training to reach full anaerobic development. Aerobic development on the other hand isn't limited in the same way but the drawback is that it takes time to develop it.
Abide, are you familiar with the theories behind aerobic base training? For most people the answer lies there, simply running more at intensities comfortably below full speed. Long, slow runs are going to do more for your time than short and fast ever could in the long run. Sure, intervals and other anaerobic stuff will make you a lot faster quickly once you start doing them but the human body has limited anaerobic capacity and it will only take a couple of months of focused training to reach full anaerobic development. Aerobic development on the other hand isn't limited in the same way but the drawback is that it takes time to develop it.
Sort of, but like the diet
Sort of, but like the diet question, I am not sure what to believe. Right now I do about 1/2 of my runs, or at least 3 a week at slower speeds. I have been running for a while now and the aerobic piece of it wasn't working, hence crossfit. How long are you talking about?
Also one of the reasons I'm talking about 5k distance is it sucks ass running long here in the summer. So I figured rather than losing 1/4 of my body weight in water during long runs I could focus on short distances for a couple of months. I'll probably run a couple of marathons over the winter.
Sort of, but like the diet question, I am not sure what to believe. Right now I do about 1/2 of my runs, or at least 3 a week at slower speeds. I have been running for a while now and the aerobic piece of it wasn't working, hence crossfit. How long are you talking about?
Also one of the reasons I'm talking about 5k distance is it sucks ass running long here in the summer. So I figured rather than losing 1/4 of my body weight in water during long runs I could focus on short distances for a couple of months. I'll probably run a couple of marathons over the winter.
Blind Boy, I agree that long
Blind Boy, I agree that long slow running is core for any distance runner and I read Hadds exposition. Full of great knowledge and the guy is talking about super elite athletes. I have been long slow, sub LT, training for years and I only see increases in my speed when I do interval training. It isn't so much that I need to increase LT, My body needs to learn to run fast and if all someone does is run slow then the body will run slow. It takes speed to run fast.
Speed in a mid range run like a 5 or 10k is multifaceted. The body needs to know how to conserve energy for the long haul yet the muscles need to have some semblance of muscle memory of what faster paces feel like. 10 years of running 11 minute miles won't cause a runner to pull off an 18 minute (sub 6) 5K. It just won't happen.
What is most frustrating here is it seems that it always turns into a two sides coin, heads or tails, but there is a place for both sides. Any training regiment without both is bound to fail.
I certainly am no expert but I have done a lot of bike training in the past and used Troy Jacobson's plans. He has a very popular saying that most athletes train to light on their hard days and train to hard on their light days. He is a proponent of both long easy rides/runs and hard intense interval rides/runs. The error I know I make very often is I let ego get the best of me and on long runs I worry about time and on intense days, I often don't push to the point of puking or almost puking.
Blind Boy, I agree that long slow running is core for any distance runner and I read Hadds exposition. Full of great knowledge and the guy is talking about super elite athletes. I have been long slow, sub LT, training for years and I only see increases in my speed when I do interval training. It isn't so much that I need to increase LT, My body needs to learn to run fast and if all someone does is run slow then the body will run slow. It takes speed to run fast.
Speed in a mid range run like a 5 or 10k is multifaceted. The body needs to know how to conserve energy for the long haul yet the muscles need to have some semblance of muscle memory of what faster paces feel like. 10 years of running 11 minute miles won't cause a runner to pull off an 18 minute (sub 6) 5K. It just won't happen.
What is most frustrating here is it seems that it always turns into a two sides coin, heads or tails, but there is a place for both sides. Any training regiment without both is bound to fail.
I certainly am no expert but I have done a lot of bike training in the past and used Troy Jacobson's plans. He has a very popular saying that most athletes train to light on their hard days and train to hard on their light days. He is a proponent of both long easy rides/runs and hard intense interval rides/runs. The error I know I make very often is I let ego get the best of me and on long runs I worry about time and on intense days, I often don't push to the point of puking or almost puking.
stomper
Guest
abide, this idea may be too
abide, this idea may be too simple, but here goes anyway: how about warming up?
i run 10K's at about 20 seconds faster per mile than 5K's, because it just takes my body so long to get into the groove. So in theory if I really REALLY warmed up I could take about 60 seconds off of a (3.1 mile) 5K.
abide, this idea may be too simple, but here goes anyway: how about warming up?
i run 10K's at about 20 seconds faster per mile than 5K's, because it just takes my body so long to get into the groove. So in theory if I really REALLY warmed up I could take about 60 seconds off of a (3.1 mile) 5K.
I have two thoughts, although
I have two thoughts, although you can decide if you want to take advice from someone whose best 5K time is 30:58 (not chip timed, I feel obliged to point out).
My best 5K times cames when I was doing a single tempo run of 4.5 miles (to nausea but not quite puking) in the middle of a 9 mile midweek run (leaving the LSD for the weekend) which allowed for a nice warmup before the speed and a good cooldown - no other speedwork. This mirrors alot of suggestions I've seen to add a single tempo run first long before you do other speedwork. I really like Hal Higdon's book on running fast 5k's and 10k's, really love it http://www.amazon.com/Run-Fast-Train-10-K-Race/dp/0875961037/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1282187166&sr=8-10.
Just remember, you have to warm up for a tempo run to be effective. And for a 5K I think I also cannot stress enough how important a good warmup is (for all distances up to the half marathon, actually, for me). Run at least a mile easy to warm up and you will bring your times down automatically, as stomper points out.
I have two thoughts, although you can decide if you want to take advice from someone whose best 5K time is 30:58 (not chip timed, I feel obliged to point out).
My best 5K times cames when I was doing a single tempo run of 4.5 miles (to nausea but not quite puking) in the middle of a 9 mile midweek run (leaving the LSD for the weekend) which allowed for a nice warmup before the speed and a good cooldown - no other speedwork. This mirrors alot of suggestions I've seen to add a single tempo run first long before you do other speedwork. I really like Hal Higdon's book on running fast 5k's and 10k's, really love it http://www.amazon.com/Run-Fast-Train-10-K-Race/dp/0875961037/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1282187166&sr=8-10.
Just remember, you have to warm up for a tempo run to be effective. And for a 5K I think I also cannot stress enough how important a good warmup is (for all distances up to the half marathon, actually, for me). Run at least a mile easy to warm up and you will bring your times down automatically, as stomper points out.
I can't argue with anyone
I can't argue with anyone here, since I don't know any of the theory, but I discovered something interesting about myself last weekend. I ran a mile race against some pretty tough competition (at least by my standards - I did it in 6:46 and I came in 17th out of 23). I was amazed how different the mile felt from the longer races I've done - I was putting in what felt like maximum effort for almost the whole time. With my lazy-ass no-plan training program, I've never felt anything like that before.
Maybe anybody who does tempo runs has no need for this discovery, but I felt like this was the first time I really had to confront pain in a race. "Make friends with pain," somebody says in BTR. I think this race was my introduction to a new friend. Maybe LSD is good for the physical aspects of increasing your speed, but I think what I experienced was good for the mental aspect.
I can't argue with anyone here, since I don't know any of the theory, but I discovered something interesting about myself last weekend. I ran a mile race against some pretty tough competition (at least by my standards - I did it in 6:46 and I came in 17th out of 23). I was amazed how different the mile felt from the longer races I've done - I was putting in what felt like maximum effort for almost the whole time. With my lazy-ass no-plan training program, I've never felt anything like that before.
Maybe anybody who does tempo runs has no need for this discovery, but I felt like this was the first time I really had to confront pain in a race. "Make friends with pain," somebody says in BTR. I think this race was my introduction to a new friend. Maybe LSD is good for the physical aspects of increasing your speed, but I think what I experienced was good for the mental aspect.
to gain speed in the shorter
to gain speed in the shorter distances you need speed work. you have to build the leg's ability to push harder for that shorter distance. long base training has it's place but if you are loggin 22's then you dont need a base. it's time to accentuate your base by building speed and the ability to hold that speed for a few miles.
hill repeats will be the best way to get this done. find a nice hill with either a long gradual or very steep grade. you want something at least 100m but no more than 400m. start at the base and do a build up of speed as you climb so that you are at near max speed at the top. walk to the bottom and head right back up.
another great way to build the speed is the old fartlek run as well as just hitting the track for some sprint work. start with 100m build ups then do 200m build ups, then do some 400m runs where you run the first 200m at a steady 1/2 max pace and then doing a build up for the last 200m.
Of course you can always do all of those and really get the wheels turning.
to gain speed in the shorter distances you need speed work. you have to build the leg's ability to push harder for that shorter distance. long base training has it's place but if you are loggin 22's then you dont need a base. it's time to accentuate your base by building speed and the ability to hold that speed for a few miles.
hill repeats will be the best way to get this done. find a nice hill with either a long gradual or very steep grade. you want something at least 100m but no more than 400m. start at the base and do a build up of speed as you climb so that you are at near max speed at the top. walk to the bottom and head right back up.
another great way to build the speed is the old fartlek run as well as just hitting the track for some sprint work. start with 100m build ups then do 200m build ups, then do some 400m runs where you run the first 200m at a steady 1/2 max pace and then doing a build up for the last 200m.
Of course you can always do all of those and really get the wheels turning.
What I'm saying isn't that
What I'm saying isn't that anaerobic running and training is bad, it's a necessary component for running a fast 5k since for most of the race you'll be well into your anaerobic zone.I just figured you're doing enough anaerobic training since you're doing CrossFit. Then again, CrossFit is designed to produce good generalists, not good runners and there's a big difference there.
The key in my mind is to mix it up, run fast one day and slow the other, to get your heart used to working at different levels. As you progress you'll want to move your training heart rates upwards when you get closer and closer to your goal race while still keeping a healthy differential between your hard and easy days.
What I'm saying isn't that anaerobic running and training is bad, it's a necessary component for running a fast 5k since for most of the race you'll be well into your anaerobic zone.I just figured you're doing enough anaerobic training since you're doing CrossFit. Then again, CrossFit is designed to produce good generalists, not good runners and there's a big difference there.
The key in my mind is to mix it up, run fast one day and slow the other, to get your heart used to working at different levels. As you progress you'll want to move your training heart rates upwards when you get closer and closer to your goal race while still keeping a healthy differential between your hard and easy days.
Alright thanks for the tips.
Alright thanks for the tips. Although I might stay away from the LSD Jschwab, I'm trying to keep this legit and drug free.
So what about a time frame to reach this goal to make myself 10% faster. 2 months? 6 months? 4 years?
BB you are right about the anaerobic training and I get plenty of it. When it cools off some I will be more apt to run longer and slower, but now I just want to get it over with faster. I know CF makes generalists, but I hit my 100 burpee pullup goal so I needed something else to shoot for. And I have never run a timed 5k before a couple of weeks ago.
Jimmy is there anything wrong with running hill sprints on a treadmill? I don't have access to many hills around here.
Alright thanks for the tips. Although I might stay away from the LSD Jschwab, I'm trying to keep this legit and drug free
.So what about a time frame to reach this goal to make myself 10% faster. 2 months? 6 months? 4 years?
BB you are right about the anaerobic training and I get plenty of it. When it cools off some I will be more apt to run longer and slower, but now I just want to get it over with faster. I know CF makes generalists, but I hit my 100 burpee pullup goal so I needed something else to shoot for. And I have never run a timed 5k before a couple of weeks ago.
Jimmy is there anything wrong with running hill sprints on a treadmill? I don't have access to many hills around here.
Yea Blind Boy in terms of
Yea Blind Boy in terms of running ability on the cardiovascular level you can pretty much toss resistance training out the window. It's returns are fairly minimal if you're trying to use it for cardio help for running. The bursts are too short and not controlled enough. It will get the muscles stronger and can greatly help them endure but you've got three systems to balance when running.
Energy, Cardio, Muscular. All three have to fire efficiently and together for max performance and under normal circumstances one cannot cover for the other. If you do tons of weight training and eat a great diet but those two together will not make up for a lack of cardio training and the same goes for all the others the same way.
You gotta train and build all three phases. I said hill runs before because in terms of running those can take care of the muscular system and build the cardio system at the same time and it all works for the purpose of running where doing a few sets of squats or plyos wont necessarily translate to improved running times.
Yea Blind Boy in terms of running ability on the cardiovascular level you can pretty much toss resistance training out the window. It's returns are fairly minimal if you're trying to use it for cardio help for running. The bursts are too short and not controlled enough. It will get the muscles stronger and can greatly help them endure but you've got three systems to balance when running.
Energy, Cardio, Muscular. All three have to fire efficiently and together for max performance and under normal circumstances one cannot cover for the other. If you do tons of weight training and eat a great diet but those two together will not make up for a lack of cardio training and the same goes for all the others the same way.
You gotta train and build all three phases. I said hill runs before because in terms of running those can take care of the muscular system and build the cardio system at the same time and it all works for the purpose of running where doing a few sets of squats or plyos wont necessarily translate to improved running times.
capmikee wrote:Maybe anybody
Yes I was reintroduced to this with crossfit. I haven't really pushed myself to the point of puking since high school. It is kind of fun... well once you get used to it. Although recently the puking sensation has been replaced by the passing out sensation!
capmikee said:
Yes I was reintroduced to this with crossfit. I haven't really pushed myself to the point of puking since high school. It is kind of fun... well once you get used to it. Although recently the puking sensation has been replaced by the passing out sensation!
I just finished reading Hadds
I just finished reading Hadds document for the second time. The guy is using an example of a runner that completed 2400m (1.5 miles) between 7.5 and 5.1 minutes at various heart rates spanning 140-180 respectively. I can't even get my head around a guy that can put down that kind of time. The message is very clear that increasing mitochondria density in all muscle fibers is crucial but I have to figure out how I convert something that appears pure pipedream to my 9-1o minute mile real world.
I do thank you BlindBoy for the Doc, it is a wealth of information, I just have no clue where I will go with it other than another 2 hour 10 minute pace run I'll take section 4, use the heart rate test and make some serious use out of that part.
I just finished reading Hadds document for the second time. The guy is using an example of a runner that completed 2400m (1.5 miles) between 7.5 and 5.1 minutes at various heart rates spanning 140-180 respectively. I can't even get my head around a guy that can put down that kind of time. The message is very clear that increasing mitochondria density in all muscle fibers is crucial but I have to figure out how I convert something that appears pure pipedream to my 9-1o minute mile real world.
I do thank you BlindBoy for the Doc, it is a wealth of information, I just have no clue where I will go with it other than another 2 hour 10 minute pace run
I'll take section 4, use the heart rate test and make some serious use out of that part.Alot of Crossfit people will
Alot of Crossfit people will say that what they do does as much for you aerobically as long distances. I used to work with a young guy and we used to spend our goof off time talking Crossfit stuff. He was a total convert from running long (had run cross country in HS). After transitioning to crossfit and not running long at all for a couple years, he had not lost any time off his 5K PB. They will say that resistance training is heart training. I doubt his experience would have been the same with a 10K or up, but for the 5K (or military test distances, for the military Crossfit people) I think Crossfit folks are comfortable just doing their Crossfit thing.
Alot of Crossfit people will say that what they do does as much for you aerobically as long distances. I used to work with a young guy and we used to spend our goof off time talking Crossfit stuff. He was a total convert from running long (had run cross country in HS). After transitioning to crossfit and not running long at all for a couple years, he had not lost any time off his 5K PB. They will say that resistance training is heart training. I doubt his experience would have been the same with a 10K or up, but for the 5K (or military test distances, for the military Crossfit people) I think Crossfit folks are comfortable just doing their Crossfit thing.
Yeah it seems like they are
Yeah it seems like they are coming around a bit with CrossFit Endurance. I think CF does help with the 5k and shorter distances, but running longer than that really wears me out. Whereas before, 5 miles was a short run for me. Then again I could also only do 5 pull-ups then and now I can do a whole hell of a lot more.
Yeah it seems like they are coming around a bit with CrossFit Endurance. I think CF does help with the 5k and shorter distances, but running longer than that really wears me out. Whereas before, 5 miles was a short run for me. Then again I could also only do 5 pull-ups then and now I can do a whole hell of a lot more.
Yeah, it's quite simple,
Yeah, it's quite simple, really. You get better at what you do. 5k and 10k are mostly anaerobic distances, at least if you're reasonably fast so CrossFit might work for that. Once you move beyond that though you're way out of your comfort zone since your body hasn't had a chance to adapt to working at a lower effort level for a long time.
Yeah, it's quite simple, really. You get better at what you do. 5k and 10k are mostly anaerobic distances, at least if you're reasonably fast so CrossFit might work for that. Once you move beyond that though you're way out of your comfort zone since your body hasn't had a chance to adapt to working at a lower effort level for a long time.
