healthy running seminar w/Cucuzella

Discussion in 'Training Information/Training Regimens' started by migangelo, Jul 28, 2014.

  1. Sid Barefooters

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    Hey Mike, what was the difference between what your chiropractor classmate showed you about running vs. Cucuzella and DiCharry, or was it the same?
  2. Sid Barefooters

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    Mike, I agree that in this forum, as with most others, there's a lot of assertions and anecdotes, and not a lot of science. It's a lot of BS (BroScience)! :D Let's talk real science!
    http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/technique/155-Jason_Karp.pdf
    http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/muscletyping.html

    I have no doubt that Mo Farrah is a well rounded athlete, for his weight class. There is evidence that strength training is beneficial for elite athletes. We are not elite athletes.
    http://www.poliquingroup.com/Articl...s_Why_Runners_Should_Include_Weight_Trai.aspx
    http://running.competitor.com/2014/02/training/should-distance-runners-lift-heavy_67606

    Most recommendations on strength training for recreational and amatuer athletes speak of the benefits of posture. To me, that's not training. That's rehabilitation and physical therapy.

    There is evidence that focus on fast twitch fibers can be helpful for specific aspects of running.
    http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/05/sprint-training-for-distance-runners.html
    http://www.runnersworld.com/race-tr...tment-affects-running-performance?page=single

    By the way, one footed jumps are a kindergarten level skill. Doing it for miles requires endurance, not strength.
    http://www.helpinghands.org/old/childdev.html

    My postulate is that development of the ability to comfortably carry weight at a distance, is a foundational skill that should precede distance running and strength training, because of its benefits for neuromuscular development, mobility, stability, fundamental strength, and endurance. It's a fundamental skill that most people possess in underdeveloped countries, but is lacking in many Western cultures.
  3. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
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    ???
    I don't see how those articles prove your point that ST for elite runners is somehow different from ST for us recreationalists.

    In any case, here's how a guest commentator on Magness's site explains the ST-to-running relationship (http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/05/more-on-strength-training-for-runners.html):

    "To make a very gross oversimplification of the matter, we know that to improve power we must improve force. Even better, we would like to improve force without improving body mass (so, via neural improvements).

    Let's say that someone can only squat 100lbs for one rep. Now, at 50% of max effort (50 lbs), they can do 20 reps. If we increase that person's 1RM squat to 150lbs, they can probably squat 50 lbs about 40-50 times. This huge improvement means that our former submaximal effort has become even easier. More importantly, the person who used to only be able to squat 100 lbs one time, can now squat it 10-15 times. So, what used to be a maximum and unsustainable effort for the person has now become a much easier effort. Instead of working at 50lbs (let's say 8mph), we can now sustain faster paces (say, 9-10mph). These theories have been proven with beginner runners as well as elite runners. It is even more pronounced with cyclists (elite and non-elite).

    What does this mean for a distance runner or any endurance athlete? Let's say that the highest amount of power you could produce and maintain during a run was 1000 watts (not a real number, just hypothetical) and the max amount you could produce at a full sprint was 5000 watts. When we make you stronger (and include power training at the same time), we might move your sprint power from 5000 to 8000. In doing so, we move your max sustainable power during a distance event from 1000 to something higher.

    This is about the most unscientific way I can think of to describe it, but basically, if we make someone stronger, we make their ability to move much easier. Additionally, staying in the 1-4 rep range is a great way to get stronger via neural adaptations(most modern powerlifters stay in this range to improve their squats) without building muscle.

    So, while staying in a 1-4 rep range on squats may not APPEAR to be sport-specific since it is a completely different energy system, it is actually extremely specific, as it will help you to work at a higher capacity during a distance race without accumulating enough fatigue to stop your efforts. While this info is not accepted among the general population, it is common knowledge among most sports scientists and elite sport coaches. Time under tension (regarding resistance training) is increased when the goal is hypertrophy, not strength or power. As for endurance, we train those energy systems when we run 6-7 days/week..."

    This has been my (anecdotal) experience as well; that "lower body" ST increases work capacity, but not endurance, or aerobic capacity, if that makes sense. My lower body feels quite strong now as I get back into running shape, but my aerobic capacity still lags behind. My expectation is that my greater strength will lead to greater pace improvements once my aerobic capacity catches up.

    ________________________

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  4. Sid Barefooters

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    Articles summary: Fast twitch muscles lack endurance. Work on slow twitch first for endurance and aerobic conditioning, then on fast twitch to zip by your competitors on hills and the finish line.
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  5. Sid Barefooters

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    My hypothesis is that lugging around some weight for a couple of weeks will be superior to traditional weight lifting, for the purposes of training the slow twitch muscles which are essential for distance running.

    If I had an experimental group, I'd have them do that for a couple of weeks instead of running, and even continue their regular weight lifting routine. I'm guessing that their running cpacity/speed will be superior to their baseline, for recreational athletes. (Proper science of course would require a control group.)

    Most people here don't have the capacity to run "6-7 days/week". I couldn't do that either. (Well, I did but I lost it.) However, I regained it after two weeks of backpacking. :D Anecdotal, yes. Worth investigating, why not?
  6. SI barefoot Barefooters

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    In terms of running economy I think I locked in on another aspect of Dr Cucuzzella's model today while putting in 8 miles, your arms. I was still having mild to moderate problems with my thoracic spine and neck after longer runs. Lots of muscle tightness and the sense that a good back popping would fix it all. This is a very old problem for me and I can't believe I may have now found a solution! My friend, who is a chiropractor, would say, man you did something in there, and then, CRACK, bone crunching bliss. My bad habit lead to my needing this therapy ever week or two along with a conscious effort to keep my shoulders and neck as relaxed and neutral as possible in order to feel my absolute best. Otherwise, the fatigue caused by the unrelenting tension would effect my performance and motivation I think I've figured out the solution to my elusive problem, how I hold my shoulders while I run. My shoulders tend to roll a little forward which causes the muscles in the back of my neck and upper back to be overstretched, and, as a consequence, I didn't really get Dr Cucuzzella's recommendation to pump your arms in synch with your stride. Today I got it. I pushed my shoulders down and back, kind of hard, and the tension this created in my arms, as I ran, caused them to pump automatically to the rhythm of my legs. Within a mile I noticed the mild tension in my shoulders and neck virtually disappeared. I could have easily run 10 or 12 miles but kept it to 8 since I want to run in the morning and will be traveling after that (pain has made me a skeptic of sorts). Since that run this morning I have felt the best I have EVER felt after an 8 miler.

    On a side note, while at my local coop grocery store today, I bought a pound of chia seeds. I made the drink where you mix 1 tablespoon of chia seeds with 10 oz of water and 1 tablespoon of honey. Let the concoction sit for 5 minutes to give the seeds a chance to gel up and enjoy. I think I've found my new energy drink. I followed this with a Belgian wheat beer and I feel fantastic. Why is it the "best' country in the world has the worst practices? I get it, we are one of the newest.

    Run faster softer with less effort, friends.
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  7. Sid Barefooters

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    I think we're talking past each other again. I'm not saying that strength training is useless. Mo Farrah's relative strength/bodyweight allows him to pull away from the pack with a strong finish. However, elite athletes also possess a well-developed foundation of endurance. I'm guessing that endurance accounts for 80-90% of an elite distance runner's capacity, with the remaining 10-20% from strength training/hills/sprints.

    Trying out an architectural analogy: For a skyscraper, the spire goes on after building floor, by floor, by floor. What's the point of putting a spire on top of of an 8 story building?
    What's the point of a strength-focused athlete without a proper aerobic base, crushing the hills and finishing with a strong sprint, in the middle of the race standings?

    Building an aerobic base requires mileage. Oftentimes, people get injured trying to build mileage, due to various aforementioned deficits. I'm not saying that walking around carrying weight is a shortcut. In fact, it will likely require more time, since one is not running, but rather walking, to accumulate the same mileage. However, walking with weight could add to the aerobic base, as well as promote stability, mobility, and fundamental strength, which may reduce the risk of injury.
    http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/01/base-training-is-not-just-easy-running.html

    Distance athletes can build a magnificent spire, after building the foundation and each floor. :D
  8. migangelo Barefooters
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    si bf,
    soak your seeds even longer. 5 mins is nothing. overnight works great. you'll just have to mix the honey in while the water is warm if you plan to put it in the fridge.

    sid,
    damn you. don't give me science to read. i get enough science here at school.
    my colleague showed me to run by lifting my knee with my psoas. you get good results. it's still running with some nice effects but it's definitely more tiring. way more tiring. think of this. it's easier to push something than to pull. by lifting your knee or foot, however you want to describe it, you're pulling. pushing with your gluttes is so much easier.

    they told us to work on your posture at all times, not just while running. you have to be especially carefull when you're tired. sitting is the most important sinc we do that most and are hunched over. if you can you may want to look up an Escogue therapist. they help with posture. it may be expensive. we were shown a little exercise and it corrected our posture imbalances in a few minutes and i felt it translate to the running drills we were doing.

    they were big on aerobic base building. maffetone and lydiard style. you can't rush it as that only gets you hurt. build slowly. push then rest. strength training is important with aerobic work as your main focus. they had ittt as tthe base of your pyramid. when i get to use my laptop i can post some slides. they gave us the entire seminar slides. it's a lot.

    bl,
    i stretch as needed. i'm fairly limber already. not stretching didn't lead to the imbalances, tmts and weightlifting did increase them though.

    i like lifting weights and believe everyone should do it. we don't do work like we used to. we are so much weaker than our predecessors. it's not just for elite athletes. everyone is an athlete, they are just in different training cycles.

    funny side note. i recently sold my race entry to and obstacle course race. i had troubl doing it too. most of theses kids told me tthey were built for sprrinting, not endurance. aftter hearing it so many times i looked at the two guys, smiled and said "your girlfriends must love you". only one guy laughed. the other looked confused.

    there were a lot of posts so i only answered what i could remember. forgive the spelling errrors. silicone keyboard on my ipad sucks. takes too long to correct.

    ________________________

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  9. Sid Barefooters

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    Mike, thanks for the info, very helpful!
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  10. Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
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    Right, Strength training is for improving neuro-muscular adaptations, whereas cardio or aerobic conditioning improves adaptation in one of the energy/metabolic pathways--the oxidative system. Neuro-muscular adaptation and metabolic adaptation--two different things. Apologies if I and Magness's guest commentator Matt didn't make that clearer.

    The point is that yes, one can improve their running with a slow buildup of aerobic capacity, but they will make greater use of whatever their genetic potential is if they include some kind of low-rep strength training. Low-rep strength training isn't at all oxidative, each set lasting less than a minute, sometimes just a few seconds, so it does nothing to improve aerobic capacity. It utilizes mostly the ATP-PC system and some of the Glycolytic system, if done properly, that is, low rep/heavy weight. If you're an endurance runner, it's silly to do high-rep strength training because you aren't really gaining anything in neuro-muscular adaptation and you're working the same oxidative system you work while running at aerobic paces.

    So do recreational, non-competitive runners need to do strength training in order to run? Absolutely not. Do they need it to run better, improve posture, avoid injuries, boost their immune system, avoid minor aches and pains in their daily lives, boost their endocrinal system and metabolism, and so on and so forth? Absolutely!

    ________________________

  11. migangelo Barefooters
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    you're welcome. sorry for past trangressions. hopefully i do better i believe likei did this time.

    ohh yeah, i'd rather lift weights than walk with something heavy. i want more bang for my buck. work smart not hard.

    i think one thing was forgotten witth lifting, muscle recruitment. you don't use all your muscles but focusing and lifting heavy will teach your body to conntract more muscle fiberrs. your brain i should say.. that is whatt tires out, it's what needs to be trained.

    ________________________

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  12. Sid Barefooters

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    Hey, no worries, no concerns about transgressions or anything like that. We're all here to learn and share. :D Theories and viewpoints are refined and sharpened and further developed when challenged.
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  13. Sid Barefooters

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    I don't think that one needs to chose between lifting and carrying weight. I'm going to do it on my rest days, while walking the dogs, on the weekends when I have time to lumber around. I think that it's a rest day activity that's more running-specific than many others, such as swimming. Why just walk, when one can walk while carrying something? :D
  14. Sid Barefooters

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    Sorry about hijacking the thread with backpacking. :D

    Regarding mechanics, I've been thinking about the lifting the foot concept. http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/threads/does-“lifting-the-foot”-make-us-slower.13399/
    I never quite found lifting the foot to be all that useful. I think that for recreational runners, that landing and propulsion are more important.

    How one lands determines the impact, interaction with the running surface, affects friction, gait, cadence, stride length, the plant for propulsion, the starting point for the next step. There's only so much one can do if one lands wrong, until the next landing.
    Propulsion also impacts friction, stride length, cadence, muscle activation, gait, the next landing, speed.
    The rest seems reflexive?

    I've been finding with glute activated running, that I want to take longer steps. Otherwise, I feel that I'm cutting reach stride too short, mincing my steps, that I'm not stretching my legs out long enough, limiting the amount of power my glutes can generate if I don't extend my legs. (Edit: extend the hips is probably a more accurate description.)

    If I take longer steps, that affects my landing. I'm feeling more impact. I think partly, because I have about 20lbs of belly fat to lose :D However, I'm going to work more on the landing, when taking longer steps.

    I also found this to be an interesting post on stride length and cadence. I can definitely feel myself switching to the shorter stride length, faster cadence gait, when I get tired from the longer glute activated strides. Probably just need more time and training, and weight loss! :D
    http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/11/speed-stride-length-x-stride-frequency.html

    Has anyone checked out Magness's book?
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/0615942946/
  15. migangelo Barefooters
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    http://tworiverstreads.com/natural-running-form/

    there are a lot of the principles on this site that were taught. i'm having a hard time understanding what you wrote about extending your legs. perhaps i'll read it after i eat some breakfast and do better.

    ________________________

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  16. Sid Barefooters

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    I'm trying to run more like Dr. Mark, springy with the glutes, and less like this guy, at time=42sec.
  17. Sid Barefooters

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