Don't shorten your stride!

Thanks for the comments everyone. Much like everything running, it seems to be up to me and my body. :)

From my personal experience (not much) I seem to pick up the cadence to gain speed. I have a feeling that might change once my form gets better though. My first instinct was to lengthen my stride, but when I do that I tend to dig in with my toes, so I switched to cadence instead.
 
Of course Jason is HOT no matter what pace..lol.

Mark, In my experience and opinion stride length and range of motion should fluctuate depending upon speed of the velocity of the moving body not because of the cadence of our legs. Using this as ones guide their cadence will stay roughly the same throughout a large speed spectrum from around 16 minutes pace per mile down to around 5 minute pace per mile. If/when cadence stays the same range of motion and stride length will be less and shorter at slower speeds and increase and stretch further as speed increases. Only when our bodies reach a top sprint speed does the need for cadence to increase beyond and higher due to our range of motion of our legs reaching maximum stretch/flexing ability. Does that make more sense to you? This is my experience and professional opinion as a coach of running technique.
Based on what I've read, I think it's worth noting that Barefoot&Agile's description/advice is standard among running coaches/biomechanists. This is the way it's supposed to happen.
 
Based on my lay understanding of physics / biomechanics, that is correct, and the Pose model doesn't make sense to me. The reason I don't offer my own critique of Pose is because others much more qualified than I am already have. I'm just a simple country linguistic anthropologist. No need to rehearse these arguments here.

I don't doubt that you get good results coaching with the Pose method (you certainly are passionate about your metier!). What I would suggest is that you are using a 'folk' model that offers valuable cues to achieving good form for your clients/students. As we know, folk models can work quite well on a practical level. Even Newtonian physics has become something of a folk model insofar as quantum mechanics offers a truer model of reality. Nonetheless, Newtonian physics is still perfectly adequate for building bridges. It's just that it fails in explaining adequately 'what's really going on' on a deeper level. Likewise, looking at the position of the sun still works for fairly accurate time-reckoning, but we know for a fact that the earth is the one changing its position throughout the day, not the sun.

My evolving understanding of running/biomechanics is that 'good form' exists, yes, but there's a certain amount of variation within that, and that different coaches use different cues with different students to achieve that form. The danger is in confusing these cues or models with 'what's really going on,' confusing practical results for theoretical understanding.

For example, experimental results show that the return phase of the gait cycle is mainly reflexive. That means there's little need to pull our legs or drive our knees. Yet the 'leg pull' or 'knee drive' cue or image may lead to better form with some students, as they may cause other things to happen, like a faster cadence or better placement of foot landing, that are beneficial. Likewise, in boxing, it might be useful to think of the torso as launching the fist, in order to relax the upper body and arm and let the power generated by the knees and hips be conducted to the fist efficiently. But of course, you aren't actually launching the fist.

At this point we buy another round of beer and change the topic.

I couldn't agree more.

And just to stir up trouble, have a look at this

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2012.../nik-wallenda-walks-across-niagara-falls.html

About halfway through, you get a good side view of Wallenda's stride. What fascinates me is how he extends upward as he goes forward on his standing leg to recover the other leg without lifting it. This is exactly what I am going for in my running. I have never seen so much vertical movement in a tightrope walker, but maybe I never really looked before.I know very well that tightrope walking is not running. but the patterns of extension and recovery underlie walking and running.
 
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My opinion is very basic. Do what feels good and you can sustain for whatever distance you have chosen on any given day.
My form has evolved over the last 14mo and changes depending on how far I'm going and if I'm out for fun or out for speed(such as mine is).
Who has ever looked at a barefoot runner and though, "Now there is a person who follows the rules!!"
I'm just sayin...

-Jonny
 
Who has ever looked at a barefoot runner and though, "Now there is a person who follows the rules!!"
Good point!

I think for a fair number of people, especially those who grew up physically active and/or played in sports, achieving good form is for the most part a subconscious process. I know the few I've asked about my form have said it looks good and smooth, and I've never consciously done anything about it, although I have read a bit about running in the last month or two and have been able to tweak it a bit further as a result.

I wonder how many people, what percentage, of people really need a coach or mentor? Anyone have a guess?
 
Good point!

I think for a fair number of people, especially those who grew up physically active and/or played in sports, achieving good form is for the most part a subconscious process. I know the few I've asked about my form have said it looks good and smooth, and I've never consciously done anything about it, although I have read a bit about running in the last month or two and have been able to tweak it a bit further as a result.

I wonder how many people, what percentage, of people really need a coach or mentor? Anyone have a guess?

Every runner could benefit by having a coach/mentor. As for who needs one, I think that would depend on how you define "need".
 
Every runner could benefit by having a coach/mentor. As for who needs one, I think that would depend on how you define "need".
To clarify, I would say 'Need' applies to: people who cannot achieve relatively good form on their own, or who will run with such bad form that they will injury themselves. I wonder what the percentage is. I wasn't trying to say most people would not benefit from a coach/mentor. Even if your form is relatively good, you can always tweak it.
 
My first instinct was to lengthen my stride, but when I do that I tend to dig in with my toes, so I switched to cadence instead.

Out of interest, when you say you tend to grip with your toes, are you lengthening your stride out to the front or out to the back?
 
Cadence and stride are both part of the run regardless of focus or awareness. I think we can all agree on that much. However I focus and recommend as a coach for runners to focus on cadence/rhythm of his her body moving on and off of the ground rather than focusing on the range of motion or lengthening of actual stride. The reasoning is simple. Our legs are responding to the movement of our body weight as a whole as it moves past our foot on the ground from start to finish of the run. All we need to do is respond to the release or unbalancing of our body posture. The range of motion will happen automatically and in proportion to the speed of our run. Range of motion and stride length is essentially a by-product.
 
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Cadence and stride are both part of the run regardless of focus or awareness. I think we can all agree on that much. However I focus and recommend as a coach for runners to focus on cadence/rhythm of his her body moving on and off of the ground rather than focusing on the range of motion or lengthening of actual stride. The reasoning is simple. Our legs are responding to the movement of our body weight as a whole as it moves past our foot on the ground from start to finish of the run. All we need to do is respond to the release or unbalancing of our body posture. The range of motion will happen automatically and in proportion to the speed of our run. Range of motion and stride length is essentially a by-product.

Awesome reply. Thanks!
 
Good point!

I think for a fair number of people, especially those who grew up physically active and/or played in sports, achieving good form is for the most part a subconscious process.

Well in my case I was always active and ran, and even in crosscountry I didnt really have a coach (long story) but my form sucked. Well maybe not so bad when I was HS age, I dont have a lot of pics to look at or have memory of being in pain or anything, but I know when I started to get more serious into running in the last 3 years my form definately sucked. My natural cadence is really low, I overstrided considerably, and was a heel striker. Of course some of my problems were from sneakers, but I cant say for sure shortening my stride helped since I changed so many things at once.
 
Lee, I can't speak for Tristan, but having always been a runner myself, although being off for a few years due to my back problems, I really had to concentrate on my form when running. Sprinting I was pretty good, but normal slow running my form was horrible and I really had to read a lot and then focus on making the changes at first. Now it feels natural, but it took a month or two at first for me.
 
Lee, I can't speak for Tristan, but having always been a runner myself, although being off for a few years due to my back problems, I really had to concentrate on my form when running. Sprinting I was pretty good, but normal slow running my form was horrible and I really had to read a lot and then focus on making the changes at first. Now it feels natural, but it took a month or two at first for me.
Yah, one time my wife saw me running at the end of a six-mile run that didn't go very well. I was really tired, and probably at something like an 11-minute pace. She said I looked like an old white guy. Then she say me running an 8-minute pace and said I looked good, like a runner. I wonder if running long and slow is just harder for some of us to do with good form.
 
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Yah, one time my wife saw me running at the end of a six-mile run that didn't go very well. I was really tired, and probably at something like an 11-minute pace.

What if you trained at a slower pace after being well rested, just to work on form at a slower pace?
I can't run distances at an 8 min pace, yet. So, I usually start my longer runs with a 10-11 min pace.
 
Is it possible that people struggle with form at both ends of the spectrum? I say yes indeed. The reason is simple. They don't know how to make meet the technical/mechanical requirements to run at each of the speed spectrum. Think of two different types of cars. A Ferrari and a volkswagon beetle. Both have certain unique characteristics but from the mechanical standpoint they perform the same. As humans unfortunately ee operate under perceptions that we must hone in very thoughtfully on a variety of ways to get the appropriate skill/ability to perform at our mechanical best.
 
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