Correct Toes

I finally got around to trying out some toe spacers and I love them! I didn't get the correct toes but I got a few variants of the cheaper ones. I have been on several barefoot runs in them. My favorite so far has actually been the cheapest pair.

I especially like the bar that goes in your "toe arch" as kind of a grip bar for your toes.
 
I finally got around to trying out some toe spacers and I love them! I didn't get the correct toes but I got a few variants of the cheaper ones. I have been on several barefoot runs in them. My favorite so far has actually been the cheapest pair.

I especially like the bar that goes in your "toe arch" as kind of a grip bar for your toes.
Do you have a picture of them? What is the name of them?
 
I'm familiar with two basic kinds of toe stretchers. The first kind Yoga Toes and its knock-offs. I have not tried the actual Yoga Toes but I got some "Remedy Toe Separators/Flexors" for around $7. They come in only one size. My foot size is 12.5-13 but narrow, and these seem to be ok.
71kQ9%2BWagcL._SL1500_.jpg

flexor.jpg

(yes I have stubbed my big-toes a few times lately, especially my poor left valgused-hallux)

These stretchers are relatively big but have a nice toe-grip bar which is nice for developing the "toe-arch".
toe_arch1.jpg
toe_arch2.jpg



I can do it well on my right but not so well on the left.
left_arch2.jpg

This is the best I can do with my left big toe. I wasn't able to do this at all two weeks ago. I could lift my big toe but I was not able to get the tip (distal phalanx) to flex. After a couple weeks of practice I can do it but, it is difficult it hurts along the top of my toe. I think the toe stretchers have helped.



The second basic kind of toe-stretcher that I've seen around online are the ones with circular holes.
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I got the CVS ones for about $10 and they only came in one size. They are silicon rubbery and feel like thick rubber-band. They fit tight and have less structure than the yoga-toes (TM) type of separators. They also have a narrower spacing; at least these ones do.
cvs_toestretch.jpg

I like running in these ones. I practically forget about them after the first few minutes. If you have a decent toe-arching ability then they won't come off. I would like to see some of these in black with wider gaps, especially for the big-toe.


toes_up.jpg

For those are not familiar with this, extending your toe raises your medial arch along that metatarsal and drives the ball of your foot down.

Then if you can hold that and get your tip-toe back down then you have a degree of control over the shape and weight distribution of your foot. I guess the toes are like little levers that control the contact patch of your foot.
grip1.jpg
 
These stretchers are relatively big but have a nice toe-grip bar which is nice for developing the "toe-arch".
I like running in these ones. I practically forget about them after the first few minutes. If you have a decent toe-arching ability then they won't come off.
For those are not familiar with this, extending your toe raises your medial arch along that metatarsal and drives the ball of your foot down.
Then if you can hold that and get your tip-toe back down then you have a degree of control over the shape and weight distribution of your foot. I guess the toes are like little levers that control the contact patch of your foot.

The "toe-arch" you are mentioning over here is something new to me.
I have tried what you are describing above and it looks like I have almost no toe-arching ability but have been running BF happily for a couple of years.
How would this "toe-arching" be important to a barefoot runner ? I always try to run with foot (toes included) fully relaxed. Just curious. :hungry:
 
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Extend
http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/index.php?posts/163159

Splay
http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/index.php?posts/160318

Toe Arching
http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/index.php?posts/161358

As some of you may know, a few years ago, I was driving up to 40min roundtrip, just so I could run on soft trails, which I found were much more forgiving of my foot problems, bunions, forefoot varus, etc.
I got tired of driving, started over, and rehabbed my feet, which now possess the full range of extension, flexion, and splay. Now, I can run comfortably on concrete, using extend and splay, and don't stub my toes anymore. :D
 
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These stretchers are relatively big but have a nice toe-grip bar which is nice for developing the "toe-arch"

How does it feel when you run with your toes arched Efrem? How do your legs feel?

(Sid already posted a link above that explains why I am curious :) )
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Efrem, are those white spacers on your feet the CVS ones? The look so different on the box from how they look on your feet (aside from the color)
Yeah those are the cvs ones. I suspect most of these kind are about the same but I have a couple more different brands on the way. They tend to run $3-$15.
How does it feel when you run with your toes arched Efrem? How do your legs feel?

(Sid already posted a link above that explains why I am curious :) )
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I don't really run with my toes arched like in the picture. I can walk like that to some extent. I was doing an extreme arch to show it but when actually running I've been playing around with how much feels good and how much feels like too much. I don't have a consistent habit yet. It also depends on the terrain and slant of the ground and whether you're going straight or turning or going up or downhill.

My legs feel pretty much the same. No different soreness, but I've been running barefoot for a lot of years. What does feel very different is the alignment of my left foot. My foot used to naturally turn outward to avoid flexion of that stiff ankle and toe. But lately I feel I can run "over the top" of it more. I feel like the last thing leaving the ground is my big toe, like I'm lightly putting my toe print on the ground.
 
Extend
http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/index.php?posts/163159

Splay
http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/index.php?posts/160318

Toe Arching
http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/index.php?posts/161358

As some of you may know, a few years ago, I was driving up to 40min roundtrip, just so I could run on soft trails, which I found were much more forgiving of my foot problems, bunions, forefoot varus, etc.
I got tired of driving, started over, and rehabbed my feet, which now possess the full range of extension, flexion, and splay. Now, I can run comfortably on concrete, using extend and splay, and don't stub my toes anymore. :D

I just watched several of the Gait Guys videos on youtube and I feel like they have some misconceptions or maybe double standards about foot health and shoes. While several of their exercises look fine, some seem a little extraneous. Just because your foot can be trained to go into certain positions doesn't mean mastering that position will help much with things like walking, running, and cycling. Maybe if you are a ballerina then you may benefit. Also, they offer some good advice but have some fundamental misconceptions about shoes and the shoe's influence on foot health. They said in one video that the widest portion of the shoe should be at the 1st metatarsal joint and that part of the shoe should be very wide. The toe box can taper, and that is fine. I don't think that is true at all. They say in other videos that people have issues with pronation due to the first toe angling towards the second toe (tapering toe box syndrome . . .), and say the resulting arch issues can be helped by arch support, orthotics, or straightening of the big toe (two wrong fixes and one good fix). Lots of mixed messages and incomplete understanding of the relationship between shoe structure and foot structure. I still really really like Dr Cucuzzella's model for fitness and health, and I like a lot of what Dr McClanahan (inventor of correct toes) says about foot structure and health.
 
Ah OK Efrem.

In case you missed it in the thread that Sid linked above, here are my thoughts on this (toe-arching) ....

I don't think it helps for anything more than a very short sprint, like they do in basketball. I do keep trying it occasionally and it does make your legs feel stronger ... for a while. I can only maintain it for a minute or so. It is completely ass-backwards to everything we're told to do for barefoot running - which is why I don't think it is of much use to me.

I agree with Sid. For endurance running toes-upwards and splaying freely is what I go for.
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I don't really run with my toes arched like in the picture. I can walk like that to some extent. I was doing an extreme arch to show it but when actually running I've been playing around with how much feels good and how much feels like too much. I don't have a consistent habit yet. It also depends on the terrain and slant of the ground and whether you're going straight or turning or going up or downhill.

I wouldn't think or worry too much about arching my toes as I walk or run if I were you. That sounds like a recipe to injure something. If you are worried that the muscles and tendons on the top of your foot are too tight to allow the pads of your toes to make full contact with the ground as you move then I'd do stretches and foot exercises at home to help. Don't overcomplicate things while moving. It's hard enough to get right while not thinking ;).
 
I agree with Sid. For endurance running toes-upwards and splaying freely is what I go for.

I agree with the upwards toes and splaying while running, but plantar flexion is important, too, at the right times during the gait cycle. I think the toes should dorsiflex (point up) just before the foot makes initial contact with the ground and the toes should start to splay and plantar flex (flex down) once the foot starts to strike the ground. As the foot continues to hit the ground, and the downward energy against the ground increases, the toes should splay further. This all happens in the early stance phase of the gait cycle (which lasts about a microsecond, so don't try to think about it while you run. It happens too fast!). Beyond this point, and into the mid and late stance phase, plantar flexion and toe splay increase. If the tops of the foot and toes are tight (especially the big toe) then the bottoms of the toes may not splay and/or come into contact with the ground in an ideal manor which will negatively effect how the impact energy is dispersed and transferred. During the mid and late stance phases the ankle flexes forward which further drives the foot into plantar flexion. This forward flexion of the ankle causes pronation, too. If the big toe is straight, flexible, and strong then the big arch in you foot (the medial longitudinal arch) will maintain its integrity and the pronation will remain at a health level. If the big toe is bent towards the second toe, or if it is too stiff, or has some other issue then it can't support the arch and if the arch collapses too much then over pronation ensues. In fact, all of the joints in the arch need to work correctly to ensure the right amount of pronation. If the joints are locked up then supination may become an issue. In one of their videos, the gait guys describe supination as the forward movement and flexion of the foot, which is wrong! Supination is lateral rolling of the foot (try walking the the outer edges of your feet to feel supination's effects). Hope this helps.
 
I don't think it helps for anything more than a very short sprint, like they do in basketball.
It is completely ass-backwards to everything we're told to do for barefoot running - which is why I don't think it is of much use to me.
For endurance running toes-upwards and splaying freely is what I go for.
.

+1
 
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I agree with the upwards toes and splaying while running, but plantar flexion is important, too, at the right times during the gait cycle. I think the toes should dorsiflex (point up) just before the foot makes initial contact with the ground and the toes should start to splay and plantar flex (flex down) once the foot starts to strike the ground. As the foot continues to hit the ground, and the downward energy against the ground increases, the toes should splay further.

As you can hopefully see here:

 
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I just wonder if you could be damaging your feet/toes (in the long run) from running in those toe spacers. Do you feel you are gripping them at all when you run? I know you said you forget you have them on. I am surprised they stay on your feet. I think I would feel like I was gripping them all the time to make them stay in place.

The Correct Toes are supposed to be able to be worn inside or "outside" (hee) of shoes when running. It makes sense that they could be worn inside of shoes, but I've tried them, the smallest size, for running barefoot, and they kept coming off my feet. I do get that the Correct Toes are super soft and flexible, so they could possibly pass for running in shoes, but with them barefoot, I was always trying to grip onto them and that really messed with my form and caused my toes to ache.
 
I just wonder if you could be damaging your feet/toes (in the long run) from running in those toe spacers. Do you feel you are gripping them at all when you run? I know you said you forget you have them on. I am surprised they stay on your feet. I think I would feel like I was gripping them all the time to make them stay in place.

The Correct Toes are supposed to be able to be worn inside or "outside" (hee) of shoes when running. It makes sense that they could be worn inside of shoes, but I've tried them, the smallest size, for running barefoot, and they kept coming off my feet. I do get that the Correct Toes are super soft and flexible, so they could possibly pass for running in shoes, but with them barefoot, I was always trying to grip onto them and that really messed with my form and caused my toes to ache.

Ok well let me give it a shot for a few weeks and I'll get back to ya.
 
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In one of their videos, the gait guys describe supination as the forward movement and flexion of the foot, which is wrong! Supination is lateral rolling of the foot (try walking the the outer edges of your feet to feel supination's effects).
As a barefoot runner, I didn't bother reading their shoefitting recommendations. After all, who am I to judge? :D
The same goes for some of their other materials.

If the Gait Guys mis-stated something, maybe consider writing to them. They do respond to questions on their website.