Cadence

#21
barefootandagile said:
Lee,

If I ever decide to make a transition to barefoot running verses barefoot shoe running I will certainly let everyone know. As for how I would transition, it would be quite simple. I would take my shoes off and start running :)

You are more than welcome to come down anytime. Just let me know when.
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I guess if you already know the secret, I'd be useless as a coach.
Thanks for the invite though. Unfortunately, with two young kids, it'll be a few years before our travel plans expand beyond picnics and state parks. It's just too much hassle. I would love to see Louisiana though. I've only passed through it once on an Amtrak train.
 
#22
I had tried to keep a cadence of around 200 when I started running. I think that is probably a good thing for new runners to do, but after you have been running bf for a while and have developed some toughness to your feet and better foot placement techniques, I think most people should slow down. Your turnover can only be so fast. So if you want to increase your pace, you have to increase your stride length. I have gradually stretched out my stride and am around a 150-175 cadence depending on the terrain. I count every foot strike. I notice that when I revert back to a higher cadence I just find that I'm not running as fast as I feel I should be. More often than not, I go by pace now instead of cadence...and oddly enough, you can look at my data from my watch and know exactly what kind of terrain I was running over just by looking at my pace...hahaha.
 
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#23
devilnuts said:
I had tried to keep a cadence of around 200 when I started running. I think that is probably a good thing for new runners to do, but after you have been running bf for a while and have developed some toughness to your feet and better foot placement techniques, I think most people should slow down. Your turnover can only be so fast. So if you want to increase your pace, you have to increase your stride length. I have gradually stretched out my stride and am around a 150-175 cadence depending on the terrain. I count every foot strike. I notice that when I revert back to a higher cadence I just find that I'm not running as fast as I feel I should be. More often than not, I go by pace now instead of cadence...and oddly enough, you can look at my data from my watch and know exactly what kind of terrain I was running over just by looking at my pace...hahaha.
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Different people use different methods to speed up. Some increase cadence. Some increase stride length. Some increase both. Diff'rent strokes...
 
#26
Stride length should increase with speed I think, no matter what. I think it's a matter of to what degree cadence will increase as some kind of ratio of the increase in stride length. Presumably stride length will increase more if you hold cadence constant while increasing velocity. When you look at B&A while he's running slow, his steps look very choppy, because he's running with an unusually high cadence for that speed, so his stride length is quite short. To my eye, his form doesn't look natural until he's running faster, when his stride length increase to what appears to me as a more natural cadence-to-stride length ration.
 
#28
barefootandagile said:
Who's eyes decide what natural is?
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A lot of recreational runners run past my window every day. You look a lot different than them, and the fact that you had to work at changing your cadence, suggests that it isn't "natural" for you. Which is by no means saying I'm judging it as good or bad. The techniques involved in sports can all be refined through analysis and coaching, so there's no reason to prejudge a running technique (for example, it took me a while before I could throw a powerful punch--my 'natural' form was bad). And several BFRers have reported that they changed to a high cadence unconsciously, or 'naturally.'

barefootandagile said:
What is the optimal stride length to cadence ratio for a given speed?
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I have no idea.
 
#29
Lee,

If I were the oppostional type :) I would argue that my running is as natural as anyone's regardless of pace. It is also more intellectually thought out and practiced than most runners.

In regards to cadence. If nature could speak it would implore runners to allow their bodies to move on and off the ground easily at 180+ cadence at any speed. Regardless of how much thought they put into insuring it was happening.
 
#30
barefootandagile said:
Lee,

If I were the oppostional type :) I would argue that my running is as natural as anyone's regardless of pace. It is also more intellectually thought out and practiced than most runners.

In regards to cadence. If nature could speak it would implore runners to allow their bodies to move on and off the ground easily at 180+ cadence at any speed. Regardless of how much thought they put into insuring it was happening.
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Please note that I have put "natural" in scare quotes, and have explicitly stated that my observations are subjective.
 
#31
Lee,

And to the idea of working on technique. I would not use the term hard to explain my transition to more "natural" running. Yes it entailed a certain amount of thought and practice but it was more necessity and desire driven than any amount of physical effort.
 
#32
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. When you observe B&A, look at him from the waist up. Is he very quiet and smooth, with minimal wasted movement (side to side or up and down) ? The fact that his legs may look "choppy" (I don't know, I haven't seen him run) may simply be from his quick turnover....which may in fact be very efficient. Slow turnover may look better from the waist down, but check the waist up.
 
#33
barefootandagile said:
Lee,

And to the idea of working on technique. I would not use the term hard to explain my transition to more "natural" running. Yes it entailed a certain amount of thought and practice but it was more necessity and desire driven than any amount of physical effort.
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Fair enough, I was recalling the effort it took for me to develop decent striking technique, projecting it onto you. My bad.
 
#34
Hawkbilly said:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. When you observe B&A, look at him from the waist up. Is he very quiet and smooth, with minimal wasted movement (side to side or up and down) ? The fact that his legs may look "choppy" (I don't know, I haven't seen him run) may simply be from his quick turnover....which may in fact be very efficient. Slow turnover may look better from the waist down, but check the waist up.
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Hawkbilly, check out B&A's video on page one of this thread and judge for yourself.
 
#36
Bare Lee said:
Hawkbilly, check out B&A's video on page one of this thread and judge for yourself.
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His torso looks pretty quiet to me, although with rough footage it's hard to see really well. At the slow paces everyone looks a little "choppy" with a high turnover.....it just goes with the smaller steps. I'm far (really far) from an expert so take my observations with a large (very large) grain of salt. I think it's easy to get twisted in knots over the many things one could consider in running form....and lose track of the fundamentals of what I'm trying to accomplish. For me the point is to run in a way that is kind to my body, feels good, and allows me to continue running. I don't give a toad's tookus whether it's "optimal" or whether I'll ever run a sub 3hr marathon. Whatever. I'll sacrifice speed for health anyday of the week (twice on Sundays). I've found a lot of comfort (and recent success) with a 190-200 cadence, so I'm sticking to it. That doesn't mean that's the only right answer, it's just my answer. If I think about knee bend and quick feet as I start a run, everything else seems to fall into place.
 
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#37
Hawkbilly said:
That doesn't mean that's the only right answer, it's just my answer. If I think about knee bend and quick feet as I start a run, everything else seems to fall into place.
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That's all that's important of course. But I don't think there's a speed versus health trade-off; your cadence should naturally approach 180 plus the faster you go. 180's my cadence at 7-7:30 mm pace, which is a fast run for me at this stage in my life.
 
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