Base Training - Setting HR zone?

[swedishpimple]

The topic of Aerobic Base Training is one that interests me greatly. Without going into too much detail on the topic or my situation (I'll leave that for others to do)... let's just say that I'm a believer.

My question to the group is: How do I properly set my HR zone for this type of training? It seems like the age based formulas that are out there are kind of a one size fits all approach that simply does not fit in my case. I think the problem is that a) My max HR is significantly higher that predicted under these formulas. and b) my resting HR is also somewhat higher than most.

Here are my vitals:

Age: 37

Max HR: 196

Resting HR: 62

Thanks.

S. Pimp.

 

[Blind Boy]

I'll go out on a limb here

I'll go out on a limb here and say that you haven't given enough info. The most important number in base training is knowing your lactate threshold since the purpose of base training is raising it and the best effect is achieved by exercising at a level a few beats below it. If you don't feel like testing it, i suggest you read this: http://www.counterpartcoaching.com/hadd.pdf A very good read and he has a few suggestion about how to estimate it without testing.

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 The problem is that it is

The problem is that it is almost impossible to get correct if you don't get it tested. I agree with blind boy with the exception of it being about lactate threshold. It's more about caloric usage in terms of which calories are you drawing from the most at each range of heart beats.

This information will be very watered down but the basics are this: the body has two basic forms of energy; those being fats and carbs. Based on your oxygen intake abilities or VO2 max you will burn more of one or the other depending on your level of exertion. We use heart rate as the scale to measure this exertion. As you work, your body will utilize your calories to fulfill its needs for things like muscular contractions, organ function, etc. Fats take more effort for the body to use because they must be turned into a usable energy as the body cannot just take fat as fat and burn it. It must mix it with oxygen and put it through a 12-15 stage (the stages are constantly debated) process to convert it into a usable energy source (basically sugar). This is very difficult for the body to do at higher levels of exertion because the oxygen is less available so the body uses sugar which needs no oxygen to be burned as fuel.

It breaks down something like this. Lets say you can bring in 30ml of oxygen per minute at rest and 40ml at peak. You have a resting heart rate of 90 and use only 10ml of your available oxygen for body function leaving you with 20ml for fat conversion. At peak you have a heart rate of 180 and use 38ml of oxygen for body function leaving you with 2ml for fat conversion. At rest you have a larger level of oxygen not being used for basic function so you can allocate that left over oxygen to the process of converting fat and utilize a higher amount of fat calories for your energy. At peak you have very little oxygen left over so you will be burning nearly 100% carbs to keep going. Somewhere in between resting and peak you will hit a "wall" and the brain will recognize that you can no longer maintain your level of exertion by using fat because you just don't have enough oxygen available for that purpose so it switches to carbs for energy. This is commonly referred to as your Anaerobic Threshold or AT. Keep in mind at all levels of exertion you will always be burning fats AND carbs but the amount of oxygen available will determine the percentage of each.

Base training is considered to be done below your AT so you can teach your body to use fat as an energy source which will build your overall endurance because you can run much much longer on your fat stores than you can your carbs. For the person above they might have an AT of say 150 so training in intervals below 150 they will be keeping their body efficient and build their ability to burn higher percentages of fat. Above the 150 mark they will use carbs for energy, last for a shorter time, and that is where the ideas and issues of lactate threshold really come into play. As you work in your base area you will raise the level of fats you convert and that will allow you to run faster with less energy and then doing higher intensity intervals above your AT will build on lung capacity and muscular power. Blending of the two will help you raise your AT and allow you to begin burning higher amounts of fat at higher heart rates and you will then gain more speed with less or equal efforts while still maintaining the ability to continue for long periods.

The problem is that you have to be tested through gas exchange testing in order to have the numbers be accurate. The generic and often used equation to determine your AT without such testing is to subtract your age from 180 and that is your AT. Add 10 if you are in great shape and subtract 10 if you are in poor shape. Take that number and split it into 5 zones that consist of a 10 beat range. Zone one being your warm up and cool down range, Zone 2 your base range, Zone 3 which ends at AT being your endurance range, Zone 4 being a performance range, and Zone 5 your all out peak range. The scale would look like this for a person with an AT of 150 - Z1: Resting-130, Z2:130-140, Z3: 140-150, AT, Z4:150-160, Z5: 160-Peak

Any questions?

 

[swedishpimple]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Thanks for the replies guys. Lots of info indeed.

After reading over your feedback it sounds like a true measurement is only possible via either direct testing or prolonged systematic measuring of performance at different levels of exertion.

I guess I'm just looking for an estimate for now.

I posed the question mainly because I have recently begun to question the numbers I have been using for training purposes (

 

[swedishpimple]

I have decided to experiment

I have decided to experiment for a while gauging how I feel, my perceived level of exertion, at different HR levels. In the absence of actual measurements and/or testing this approach may be the best way to ferret the best base training level for me.

As for my pace... we'll see. It may just turn out that I am a naturally gifted turtle. I can tell you that my exertion level at 10-11 min/miles prior to base training felt much too high to be sustainable.

Anyway.... sometimes I make things too complicated.

This week I will run at

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 The higher heart rate felt

The higher heart rate felt more difficult because you are not developed in that range of beats per minute so you are less efficient in fat burning there. your heart is a muscle and it trains very similar to all your other muscles in that time under pressure yields results. The more you make your heart beat 154, 160, etc the more it gets used to it. The muscle fibers adapt and your heart gets strong at that range allowing it to pump the blood with less effort.

All of that will allow you to eventually feel the same at 154 as you do at 148. If all you ever do is stay in the same range then you are only building efficiency in that range and all other will begin to feel more difficult, even lower rates. The difference between the heart and all other muscles is that it is exertion specific. Meaning if you can lift 100lbs then all weights below that are easier but the heart is different. If you are very efficient at 140 but never train anywhere else then 120 can feel as uncomfortable as 170 because your heart is not used to meeting performance demands in those areas.

 

[swedishpimple]

I probably just need more

I probably just need more time.

I think one of my main reasons I am so inefficient at this point is that I have never really properly built an aerobic base. As a result I am beginning to realize that I am woefully unprepared to run any significant distances at any real pace. Maybe this is normal for a 37 y/o newbie runner with very little history of training for cardiovascular fitness?

I have cross country skied for the last 6 winters... but in retrospect even that training was probably done at far too high a level. Aside from that... it's not that I've been a couch potato, but I really haven't had any cardio training in my entire adult life. So considering were I started maybe my progress at this juncture isn't so bad?

My goals at this point are simple:
[*]BFR a 5K(

 

[Blind Boy]

Pimp, did you read the

Pimp, did you read the article I linked in my post? If you didn't, you really should. Before I came across that I'd been studying Lydiard for a while but I had trouble grasping exactly what he meant by some things. The Hadd article made things a lot clearer. Lydiard is very much a go by feel approach, Hadd is more about concrete numbers but they're both saying the same thing.

In my training right now I'm at a point where base building is starting to pay off. When I started out this season I ran at a 12 min pace or just below it. Now, I can run the same and even longer distances at a low 9 pace at about the same effort and heart rate. I've also managed to build enough endurance to be able to keep going for three hours without a single stop and not feel like killing myself afterwards which is a huge improvement over how I usually feel while training hard. My training goals are a couple of 50k races in April and May so I have quite a bit more base-building to do.

 

[LavaRunner]

Jimmy, Interesting point you

Jimmy, Interesting point you make about HR becoming efficient at a set rate.

When I started running again after a long sedentary (non-running) 30's it was very easy for me to get the thumper up to 180 and even see a 190 every now and then on a hill. My resting HR was in the 80's and I wasn't healthy by any standard. I felt like I was going to explode.

Last year I found that I was comfortable running in the 150-160 range on long runs and could maintain a 10-11 minute pace at 150 and my resting HR was around 55. This year I have really stepped it up and getting my HR into the 140's takes effort. I have to maintain an 8 minute pace for several minutes or do intervals in which I can get the HR around 150 and my resting HR is in the upper 30's.

Running a comfortable 9-10 minute pace now I tend to beat around 125-130 in the 90 degree heat and if it is a cool day 115-125. It has me wondering if I need to really push myself to get over this plateau and step it up a level where I can operate in the 150-160 range again and how fast I might be able to go then.

So after thinking about this last night I decided to act and it pushed me to the track where I did 4 miles of 1/4 mile intervals at an average 5:30-6/min pace. It was amazing afterwards when I was running home at a 7:30 pace feeling slow and the HR leveled out around 150.

The body is an amazing machine and it does appear that it seeks out efficiency and fights to maintain that advantage.

 

[swedishpimple]

Lava - That is some serious

Lava - That is some serious adaptation man.

I think you are my new role model.



Blind Boy - I just read over it again.

In his examples it appears that Hadd is suggesting mixing training levels a bit. It would appear that his recommendation for someone with my max hr would be base training runs done at about 145 BPM with other days at different levels ranging from 150-160 BPM. With this later range slowly increasing over time as efficiency at these levels improves.

Is this the sort of training you are doing as well?

Thanks.

S. Pimp.

 

[Blind Boy]

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. What I've done is take Lydiard's 100 mpw schedule and replaced miles with kilometers so it comes out at about 62 mpw and then I take rest days whenever I need to since I couldn't handle running that much yet. I don't go by heart rate though since I don't have a heart rate monitor, instead I go by feel. My "feel" seems to be off though since I run a lot faster than normal yesterday without working any harder than I normally have to so I might need to get one and get tested. I do, however vary intensities as much as I can. The whole range I "run" in is from about 12:00 to 9:00, depending on what day it is. Like I said, it seems to be working pretty well too. Ive already done the first point on your list and barring any injuries I'll easily be able to pull off the second one as well when the snow arrives. The question is whether or not I'll go skiikng or keep running though.

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 that's some impressive stuff

that's some impressive stuff lava and right on track with what i've been teaching my clients for years now. breaking out some speed work to push your limits is a great way to help your heart settle into new areas of comfort.

Pimp you need to vary the training or it will take forever to see improvement in speed. the whole thing i wrote up there was to tell you not to sit in one zone and just train it by itself. The heart needs to be pushed to different levels or it will become inefficient in those and basically lock you into only one range where you feel comfortable and making any improvements beyond or in that range will take some serious effort.

blind boy a good "how do i feel" test is the talk test. if you can get through a 5-10 word phrase without taking a breath then you are below you AT and utilizing a decent amount of fat for fuel. if you cannot get that many words out without needing some air then you are either at or above AT and pulling more from carbs. i've used that method on hundreds of people to give them an idea of how hard to push on any given day.

also something of interest is that your AT will differ from day to day. just like any other muscle the heart may get a tired and that will cause your AT to be lower on some days than others where the heart may be fresh and it would then be higher. being able to feel these changes will make a great deal of difference in your workouts.

 

[Blind Boy]

Jimmy, I know about the "talk

Jimmy, I know about the "talk test" but I haven't been using it. I look crazy enough running barefoot, I don't need to go around talking to myself too. Seriously though, I know what I've done wrong, I've been watching my pace a little too much. I simply haven't had the confidence to run as fast as I should since I'm so used to being out of shape. The thing that all of my fastest training runs have had in common is that I haven't looked at the GPS for the first mile or two and just let my body settle into a comfortably fast pace. I think I'm going to start running with only a stopwatch from now on since I know the total distances for most of my regular routes.

 

[swedishpimple]

 Jimmy -  I think I am

Jimmy - I think I am finally starting to put all the pieces together.

Recently I've started mixing some different levels into my training...more so since starting this thread... and in as quickly as 3 runs I am already starting to see results in pacing.

Here are my most recent runs in terms of HR / pace... these are avg. during 2.75-3 mile runs, same hilly neighborhood terrain as before:
[*]160 BPM / 13:40 min/mile[*]156 BPM / 14:50 min/mile[*]148 BPM/ 15:20 min/mile
Keep in mind that four runs ago at 148 BPM my pace was 18 min/mile.

Anyway... I am also starting to realize that there is no set magic HR number. It is a moving target. You can use it as a guideline to help set training levels you just have to be willing to accept that it is not exact. It can change day to day with, fatigue, tiredness, illness, terrain, and even the weather (heat..etc.).

Also variation in training appears to be key for improving performance.

I am still training within my aerobic limits... and thus still building an sound aerobic base. Hopefully I will continue to improve. The runs at 148 still feel awesome...easy but awesome... and if I can manage to get to a point where my speed at this level is respectable almost any distance will be my 'bitch'.

This has been very helpful..... thanks!

S. Pimp.