Bad Advice from RW Editor - has anyone commented?

[jschwab]

http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/health/baring-it-all-the-barefoot-running-trend-2337336/



If you’re thinking about shedding your shoes, consider these guidelines:

[*]Barefoot training is not for people who are just starting to run or returning from a long layoff—it’s something to slowly incorporate into an existing running regimen.[*]If you have persistent or serious foot problems, consult your podiatrist first.[*]Ease in slowly. Paul advises starting with a few minutes on a flat, relatively forgiving surface once a week. Grassy fields, smooth roads, and soft trails qualify. Running on sand might be tempting, but barefooting newbies should stick to wet sand at first as the unstable soft stuff puts a lot of torque on your joints and is much harder to run on.[*]Listen to your body. “Barefoot Ken Bob” Saxton, founder of runningbarefoot.org and finisher of more than 70 barefoot marathons, says, “Luckily, your feet are sensitive, which is a good thing. Listen to them and they'll keep you from doing something stupid.”
It's not terrible but I really take issue with the idea of only incorporating it into a program. After a layoff is the perfect time to start.

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 The problem here is that all

The problem here is that all of that is subjective. For some people that advice may be very true and for others not so much. Truth is there is no "best" time to start or "best" way to work it in because the process is very individual.

Just look at the world of shod running. It's the same way with questions and advice because there are a million ways to go about doing it. I personally think getting on harder surfaces at first for small amounts is very beneficial but I can see how sticking to softer surfaces would work as well.

With regard to your dislike of the injury or lay off recommendation it makes sense for him to say that. Coming off an injury or layoff will typically mean you have a weak spot and starting something challenging and new could potentially be a bad idea. I agree that it could also be a good time to change things as you're sometimes coming in with a fresh slate but the advice here is not "wrong" or "bad"

This just looks like a list of "play it safe" recommendations and I can respect that versus a lot of the stuff I've seen so far. We have to stop being so negative and one track minded about people's advice for barefoot running. When it's blatantly wrong then we can speak but if it's just slightly different than a personal preference I don't think we need to try and attack it.

 

[saypay45]

I guess I disagree Jimmy just

I guess I disagree Jimmy just because I think the portions jschwab highlighted aren't all that subjective.

BUT, I do agree with your point that we shouldn't be so quick to turn negative about those who attempt to give advice. All they are trying to do is help. I think that most people will not get their advice on barefooting from one source, so the effect of one article like this with somewhat incorrect information won't have that much effect.

 

[jschwab]

Yeah, the person giving the

Yeah, the person giving the advice is not someone experienced with barefoot running (Dr. Susan Paul). Plus the author is an editor at RW - she could have asked around. I especially don't like the idea that if you are a beginning runner you have to start in shoes and then transition. If she was not an editor at RW, I would not really be annoyed.

 

[Blind Boy]

While the advice isn't

While the advice isn't exactly good, think of how it would've sounded a year or two ago. At least they're moving in the right direction.

 

[jschwab]

That's a good point. I have

That's a good point. I have been doing so much damage control with friends who want to start barefoot running (start running period) but then read advice like this and give up on the idea that I am getting really irritated. Sorry for the Friday crankiness. I've been getting irritated at the lack of journalistic integrity in general.

 

[RunsWithPit]

I agree Jschwab. In some

I agree Jschwab. In some ways, being a beginner can be an advantage.

I came to this as a non-runner. I had vast experience hiking and sprinting in the forest, but I was not a distance runner. Not being a "runner," I didn't have any specific mileage I was dying to keep up. I also had less to unlearn. My woodland sprints were very forefoot oriented...I had never logged countless heel striking miles as most have.

Not to say my journey was easy, I still had to learn a new form, stop pushing off...and it was so much fun, I still managed to do TMTS, but nothing serious...just some aches and pains that delayed my progress when I began last year.

I fail to see where learning to run in shoes has anything to do with learning to run barefoot. If your goal is to run barefoot, that seems counterproductive...

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 Maybe I used the wrong with

Maybe I used the wrong with subjective because what I was really trying to say is that this article isn't saying dont do it and that it's the worst thing ever. It's at least an attempt at giving cautious advice on how to go about doing it.

schwab I agree that all the damage control we do is infuriating. I used to talk a lot on the birthday shoes forum but I got to where I couldn't handle all the constantly having to help people figure out how to go about healing their injuries because they just took off without thinking. I like the idea that this article is at least making an effort to tell people to be careful.

In terms of running with shoes and then going bare the idea (and I do not fully agree but I understand the point) is that someone who is not a runner is probably not also going barefoot all the time. The average person lives in shoes so the feet are weak. The shod world of runners that I work with think that will create issues for a non runner if they just jump straight to running with no shoes. To be honest I have dealt with more TMTS issues in runners who were not runners before they started running bare. I think the issue is that they don't know how to run at all and just going out there bare can put them at risk.

Her advice seems to elude to that idea and say that you should learn to run and then move to bare if you want. The only issue I have with that idea is that running in shoes can teach you to run wrong.

For me this is not about bare vs. shoes. It's about running correctly and healthy vs. running wrong. Running bare/minimal almost always creates good form where shoes tend to do the opposite and that is the battle I choose to fight instead of bare vs. shoes etc.

 

[jschwab]

That is a really good point,

That is a really good point, Jimmy. I know I bang my head against the wall alot trying to get people to understand that they might have to change all their footwear in order not to get injured when they go barefoot/minimalist. Myself, I have made this mistake a thousand times. I've been wearing normal street shoes (flat sandals, but still with some mm of heel drop) and ignoring the problems it's causing simply because I want cute shoes. Today I am back in water shoes at work looking like a dork due to some tenderness around my post tibial tendon. I have a coworker who wants to run barefoot, but every day at work she is wearing platform wedges (if you don't know what that is, prepare to blanch at the sight:



http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.starstyleinc.com/azzedine-alaia-platform-wedges-pic25000.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.starstyleinc.com/azzedine-alaia-platform-wedges-sp25000-full.html&usg=__7VILRzYh-n4zxikw3374I4ixlVo=&h=650&w=525&sz=75&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=1qni7Ag5j4Wy-M:&tbnh=98&tbnw=90&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dplatform%2Bwedges%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1R2GPEA_en%26biw%3D990%26bih%3D481%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=720&vpy=159&dur=2596&hovh=250&hovw=202&tx=123&ty=154&ei=rbxuTMPOBoT58AajtfDkCg&oei=rbxuTMPOBoT58AajtfDkCg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0



It's a matter of philosophy, I guess, too. It's like how there are alot of well-meaning doctors who will tell women "oh, have your baby with all the hospital interventions first, and then if it goes well you can have your next baby at home without drugs". Either you believe in your body's ability to adapt and function properly from the get go or you don't.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

I wouldn't make this

I wouldn't make this assumption:

In terms of running with shoes and then going bare the idea (and I do not fully agree but I understand the point) is that someone who is not a runner is probably not also going barefoot all the time. The average person lives in shoes so the feet are weak.

Take Board, for example. He's placing in his age division and running well. He wasn't a runner when he joined us on "that other forum." He was just a barefooter looking for like-minded people. Just so happens, we wore off on him and turned his barefoot self into a barefoot runner.

I disagree. I believe learning to run in shoes allows the person to develop a bad form, like a bad habit, for probably 75-80% of the average Joe runners out there. Addictions are hard to break, even when going cold turkey. Just my opinion though.

I also take issue with the starting on grassy, soft surfaces part. I put it this way... How is a runner to learn proper running form when the answer changes with each footfall? We need to be able to learn how and where to place our weight on the appropriate parts of our feet in order to listen to the feedback we receive from the surface through our feet, so we avoid becoming injured. If we are running on a surface that is ever-changing, such as grass and sand, how will we learn to run with a consistent, proper form? I agree with Ken Bob in this sense... Learn your correct form on a hard, smooth (not soft) surface first, then once you have that down, change it up plent,y and add in sand, grass, trails, etc.

I do like positive articles like this one though. It's about time, and it seems we are seeing more and more of it to counter the negative ones. Hopefully the tide will change in our favor. And yes, we are not trying to convert EVERYONE to our way of running, but we are definitely changing the running world...forever.

 

[jschwab]

Yes, and every one give a

Yes, and every one give a shout out to BRS member Scott in PA. He is a barefoot hiker who is going to learn to run bare on 9/18 with me. Not everybody starts out in shoes.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Whoo hoo!  Welcome, Scott! 

Whoo hoo! Welcome, Scott! Go easy on him JSchwab. ;-)

 

[Longboard]

Barefoot TJ wrote:Take Board,

Take Board, for example. He's placing in his age division and running well. He wasn't a runner when he joined us on "that other forum." He was just a barefooter looking for like-minded people. Just so happens, we wore off on him and turned his barefoot self into a barefoot runner.

I had been a barefooter, as well as a regular cardio exerciser for decades.

I was convinced that I was not born to run for several reasons:

- Every time I took up running I developed severe pain in one or more joints by week two, or as soon as I hit two miles. Every bit of advice, whether it was proper stretching, not doing TMTS, orthotics, different shoes, etc. failed to eliminate the problems.

-My buddy the podiatrist had explained to me that only 5% of people have the correct mechanics to run pain or injury free, and I believed him. It was'nt HIS fault that he was taught wrong! They were using data from shod runners, and it might possibly have been right!

-I didn't enjoy running, it never felt good. There was no way I would have ever wanted to do it unless there was proof that it would make me healthier in the long run.

-I tried barefoot running on a rubberized track thinking that would make the difference in 1974,

after a couple of days I realized that it didn't. Today I understand why, but of course back then I didn't.

I'm a minimalist now, but I have a long history of equipment addiction. I have a garagefull of stuff, and it's a 30'X30'. Not one car is in it. Big enough? NOT! We've erected a 20X10 rigid tarp (I'm used to being called a hillbilly for my always bare feet, I can take it) in the back yard for more of the stuff, and have built at least a half dozen sheds as well.

My stable of longboards and long bikes (a tandem as well as a triple tandem) kept me in shape, and running became one of those things that some other people did .

Why run when you can bike? Who would run if you had a decent skateboard?

Running in shoes, barefoot on a soft track, or barefoot on the beach never worked for me beyond a few weeks.

Discovering running barefoot on hard surfaces made all the difference, and I'm sure MANY new runners could experience the same thing as long as they resist the temptation to start in shoes before easing into BFRunning.

In MY HO, any new runner considering BFR should start bare, and slowly work up to longer and faster barefoot running skipping the shoes completly, including the VFFs.

 

[Longboard]

jschwab wrote:Yes, and every

Yes, and every one give a shout out to BRS member Scott in PA. He is a barefoot hiker who is going to learn to run bare on 9/18 with me. Not everybody starts out in shoes.

Scott, to my knowledge at least 5 SBL members have added BFR to their list of activities this year alone!

Beware of TMTS, and you will do fine.

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 I said it before but I agree

I said it before but I agree with you TJ. I am a believer in the hard surfaces being a better tool at first but I can understand the mentality of starting with softer surfaces because they will be easier on the skin and more forgiving on a person's weak joints. Just like you and board said though the hard stuff seems to be the best learning environment and I agree with that.

Maybe I missed something but my point about shoes was that if you wear shoes all day but are not a runner then you probably have weak feet so just jumping straight into barefoot running could be a tough thing for you to do. Board was living barefoot before he started running, if I read that correctly, so he can't be used as an example here unless it's proving my point His feet were used to it and stronger than someone who is never going bare so his transition would be easier than most.

My bottom line with this whole discussion was to point out that there are more than a few ways to go about being a barefoot runner and to just jump on an article or a point of view because we disagree with the way they approach it is the wrong way to go. The only thing in the article that could be detrimental was the advice to learn how to run wearing shoes first. I do disagree with that but was playing a little devil's advocate. Shoes will most likely set you back because they will teach you wrong so that advice is poor but the article as whole was not so bad. It's light years better than what Fitzgerald has been spouting all over the internet lately.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Well first, that's what I

Well first, that's what I said, more and more positive articles "like this one" are coming out, and that can only be a good thing.


But as far as this...


Maybe I missed something but my point about shoes was that if you wear shoes all day but are not a runner then you probably have weak feet so just jumping straight into barefoot running could be a tough thing for you to do. Board was living barefoot before he started running, if I read that correctly, so he can't be used as an example here unless it's proving my point His feet were used to it and stronger than someone who is never going bare so his transition would be easier than most.


I still respectfully disagree, my friend and new partner. Of course, I recognize that their feet and ankles have most likely atrophied from being confined in shoes. THAT is why we recommend that everyone who pick up running barefoot run in short distances of 1/4 to 1/2 mile at a time and to decrease the speed. We talk endlessly about the upfront sacrifices that must be made in order to avoid injury. Speed and distance are two of those sacrifices. And THAT is why we tell everyone it is so critical to listen to their body and the feedback their feet are getting from the ground because some injuries could take a day or two until they appear or are noticed. A tough thing to do or not, it is the best and most healthy thing for most runners to do.


Sorry I get to use the fancy-smancy bolded blue to make my point, Jimmy. You won't hold it against me, will you?

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 I'm gonna hate you forever

I'm gonna hate you forever for the blue font TJ! I'm kidding I like it...makes it easier to see where your points are I do understand where you are coming from and I've been arguing both sides of this discussion the whole time. Which to me really says there is no one way to go about doing it.

In fact I've trained a lot of runners in my time and I've done everything from cold turkey shoe dropping to a controlled transitional program from one type of shoe to the next. The main thing I base that on is their ankle stability. If the ankles have zero to no stability I've found that using transition shoes is a great tool but if they have decent ankle stability then I've had success with just making them take their shoes off and go for it.