Anybody doing Barefoot Speed Training

A lot of easy pacing has been increasing my VO2 max. Just sayin. Also, don't forget (and get discouraged) that it is normal to plateau once in a while, as well as the progress just being less drastic the more progress is made, in both diet and running. :happy::singing:
 
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I'm doing some speedwork as I'm training for an ironman using coached workouts. I started with the intention of doing it barefoot, but I've found that I tend to push-off more, hence more friction, at higher paces. Also, at speed, I'll miss seeing a pebble here or there and that's no fun when your truckin'. I've also found that I just wasn't ready for rough asphalt, even at slow paces, so I've resorted to my Lunas for the rough stuff and speed days, and keep barefoot for recovery runs. After the event, I'll get back to work on my pure barefoot with a more relaxed running schedule.

FWIW, I'm your height and I'm 225 right now, started this year at 250, and want to get to 210 for the race in 3.5 months. My slow pace is 10:00/mile, and I'm running roughly 8:30/mile during tempos.
 
I'm doing some speedwork as I'm training for an ironman using coached workouts. I started with the intention of doing it barefoot, but I've found that I tend to push-off more, hence more friction, at higher paces. Also, at speed, I'll miss seeing a pebble here or there and that's no fun when your truckin'. I've also found that I just wasn't ready for rough asphalt, even at slow paces, so I've resorted to my Lunas for the rough stuff and speed days, and keep barefoot for recovery runs. After the event, I'll get back to work on my pure barefoot with a more relaxed running schedule.

FWIW, I'm your height and I'm 225 right now, started this year at 250, and want to get to 210 for the race in 3.5 months. My slow pace is 10:00/mile, and I'm running roughly 8:30/mile during tempos.


Thats awesome man!

Keep it up!

How long are your tempo runs?

Hopefully I'll get my pace up enough to hang with you over the next several months ;-)

Maybe just a bit of advice from this barefoot newb...on your speed days, at the beginning of the workout and end of the workout, see if you can slowly build barefoot speed WITHOUT pushing off, its a good way to chip away at correcting the 'push off' while not doing a full speed workout unshod in a way that damages the feet.

Alternately, I am doing my speed workouts barefoot on grass, just inside the track, its a lot more forgiving, but I will also stop mid sprint if I feel my form breaking down, and kinda 'reset'.
 
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I wouldn't go too crazy with goals and such so quickly. I agree with rick, try to work towards general fitness and loosing weight, form, then distance, then start throwing speed in. Shooting for a sub 3hr marathon in less than a year!?! Its good to set goals, its fun to set goals, but for the first few months you shouldn't really be pushing anything, and just getting acclimated and toughening up the feet, and trying to stay injury free (that's probably the most important goal of all).

For the record, and I had a couple years of fair weather shod running and several races, i did my first barefoot half about a year into bfr, and a full after 2 years. I had planned on doing my first ultra in 3 (probably just a 50k) but the marathon left me in bad enough shape that I am going to at the most only shoot for an easier marathon for year 3 and the reavaluate how I feel after that. I did break 4 hrs but that was probably why it hurt so much after.

To answer the original question, I didnt do any serious speed work my first year. Maybe a little here and there, but like I said nothing serious. Last year I tried to incorperate speed weekly or at least biweekly. But I didn't do short sprints, 1/2 mile was about as short as I'd go and shoot for breaking 3 minutes, with a quarter or so mile slow jog/walk and then repeat (id shoot for 6x, basically 5k with a bunch or rests). Sometimes I'd do mile repeats, but it felt like I was just pushing myself too hard.
 
Had a really fun tempo run today...5k at around a 10:30 pace for the first and last mile, with a peak at a 9:12 pace for a 3/4ths of a mile...plus I added some obstacles by running on the actual track, which is a kind of hard pack with a very thin layer of very course and kinda sharp sand on top...I did that on a tip from BF Ken Bob's book where he suggests running on a a painful gravelly surface instead of avoiding it...as advertised, it made me run with a more bent knee and better form, cause ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch with every step if I didn't land softly and lift the feet fast lol


Was a lot of fun!
 
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Man, some of you aren't getting it. Steve ran a half marathon after just a few weeks of getting back into running and while 80 pounds overweight! He's got a lot of natural talent, so I don't think our standards and experiences necessarily apply. Plus, he's super aware of all the variables.

As for speed and tempo work, all the pro trainers say it's necessary for improving one's aerobic pace. One's aerobic pace will improve on its own, of course, especially if you're starting from a low level of conditioning, but speed and tempo work will accelerate the process and, eventually, allow you to break through the plateau that a pure volume approach will establish.
 
Man, some of you aren't getting it. Steve ran a half marathon after just a few weeks of getting back into running and while 80 pounds overweight! He's got a lot of natural talent, so I don't think our standards and experiences necessarily apply. Plus, he's super aware of all the variables.

As for speed and tempo work, all the pro trainers say it's necessary for improving one's aerobic pace. One's aerobic pace will improve on its own, of course, especially if you're starting from a low level of conditioning, but speed and tempo work will accelerate the process and, eventually, allow you to break through the plateau that a pure volume approach will establish.


Seems to me like the three types of workouts: Speed Intervals, Tempo, and Long and Easy Base Miles, make a symbiotic feedback loop.

The Long Base Mile Runs help create a stronger heart and more perfuse capillary beds, that help one recover faster, which in turn allows one to have shorter rest intervals between the high intensity bits of the Speed Intervals, the Lactic Acid producing Speed Intervals increase one's capacity to live with, and even enjoy [Good] pain on a run, while increasing both mental and physical strength, they also allow the body to use Lactic Acid as a fuel better, and a muscle that can use Lactic Acid as a fuel really well can use Oxygen (the preferred fuel) better, Intervals also increase the O2 capacity so that it takes more effort to push one past their aerobic threshold into lactic acid producing oxygen debt.

Threshold, or Tempo Runs, tie everything together...threshold runs are running right at the threshold of oxygen debt and hovering there for as long as you can.... Long Base Mile runs mixed with Oxygen Debt barrier crossing Speed Intervals both together should increase the pace at which the Oxygen debt threshold occurs.
 
... but I think he was here for interaction and discussion....


Oh I am, alls good everyone, I really appreciate everyone's feedback!

Thank you so much!
 
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... but I think he was here for interaction and discussion....
Right Laura, so let's interact, take into account what Steve has reported in his remarkable month and a half getting back to running, and not just spout the standard received knowledge, which, I agree, applies to most people, including me, but not everyone. I mean, I remember in karate one guy showed up and got his black belt in six months. Exceptions prove the (general) rule. Just because it took us years to work up to a half marathon distance, doesn't mean it has to take that long for everyone, right? Of course, Steve does add risk of injury with his quick build-up, and it's good we've all warned him and told him of our own stories of woe, but on the other hand, anyone who can run 13 miles just weeks after getting back into running is in a different category of runner than most of us, it seems to me. That's all I was trying to say. Good interaction should recognize that.
Seems to me like the three types of workouts: Speed Intervals, Tempo, and Long and Easy Base Miles, make a symbiotic feedback loop.

The Long Base Mile Runs help create a stronger heart and more perfuse capillary beds, that help one recover faster, which in turn allows one to have shorter rest intervals between the high intensity bits of the Speed Intervals, the Lactic Acid producing Speed Intervals increase one's capacity to live with, and even enjoy [Good] pain on a run, while increasing both mental and physical strength, they also allow the body to use Lactic Acid as a fuel better, and a muscle that can use Lactic Acid as a fuel really well can use Oxygen (the preferred fuel) better, Intervals also increase the O2 capacity so that it takes more effort to push one past their aerobic threshold into lactic acid producing oxygen debt.

Threshold, or Tempo Runs, tie everything together...threshold runs are running right at the threshold of oxygen debt and hovering there for as long as you can.... Long Base Mile runs mixed with Oxygen Debt barrier crossing Speed Intervals both together should increase the pace at which the Oxygen debt threshold occurs.
Excellent summary Steve! Two years ago I read up on all this stuff for the first time, and all pro-trainer-type sites (Magness, McMillan, Canova, etc.) say what you're saying. The problem for me is it's just too easy to drift back into an aerobic pace when I'm off on my tempo run, but you've reminded me of its importance. Ideally, I base my running week on running tempo and intervals/hills on Tuesday and Thursday, and then my long run on the weekend, and fill in the rest with run-commutes to add a little volume and keep the legs loose. So 20-25 miles should be tempo/speed/long run, and then another 5-10 volume miles. That worked pretty well for me, but my running's been really sporadic lately. Hopefully I can get back up there by the end of the summer, or at least by the time you're running your first marathon!
 
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Excellent summary Steve! Two years ago I read up on all this stuff for the first time, and all pro-trainer-type sites (Magness, McMillan, Canova, etc.) say what you're saying. The problem for me is it's just too easy to drift back into an aerobic pace when I'm off on my tempo run, but you've reminded me of its importance. Ideally, I base my running week on running tempo and intervals/hills on Tuesday and Thursday, and then my long run on the weekend, and fill in the rest with run-commutes to add a little volume and keep the legs loose. So 20-25 miles should be tempo/speed/long run, and then another 5-10 volume miles. That worked pretty well for me, but my running's been really sporadic lately. Hopefully I can get back up there by the end of the summer, or at least by the time you're running your first marathon!



Hola Lee,

My schedule is as follows:

Monday:

2-3 mile Recovery Run at a light easy pace

Tuesday:

Track Speed Workout which for now is as many Oxygen Debt 400 meter repeats as I can manage, until I get up to 10 in one workout, then I will up those to 800 meter repeats until I can do 8 of those...a well known Marathon workout is to do 8X800 meter repeats, with each 800 meter being in the same amount of minutes that you want to run a marathon in...so if you want to do a 3:30 Marathon, you do 8 x 800 meters at 3 minutes 30 seconds for each 800 meter interval.

Wednesday:

Threshold run type 1...this is a track workout for now, where I run at a pace that produces a tiny bit of lactic acid, and then back off a tiny bit...and run for a set distance (5k for me right now), but stay right at the lactic acid threshold without teally crossing over.

Thursday:

Threshold run type 2...this is a treadmill run, ran at a slight incline (about 1.5)...I set the mile per hour and minute per mile at a pace that I know will be tough to maintain, but not immediately push me into lactic acid production...then just hold that pace fir as long as I can hang on, trying to go a little faster, and a little longer each week...this is an agony workout, but in a fun way.

Friday:

Rest day...no running at all unless I am a bit sore, and then just enough to warm up the muscles and work out any poison in the muscles so to speak.

Saturday:

5.2 mile mountain trail run in the AM, slow easy pace but with some long elevation climbs for the distance.

In the evening, 5-10 'in-and-outs' which is a kinda gradually building 120 meter sprint on grass at about 95% of max speed effort

Sunday:

Long Trail Run...10.2 miles 12:50 to 13:30 mm pace...3200 feet of climbing, 3200 feet of descent.



I'll probably switch it up later, but for now thats what I'm going with.


When I get more advanced, the sunday long run will get longer, and then once I get the long run at 16-18 miles comfortably, I'll turn that into a 'Progression' run, wherein the last three mile will each be ran at a progressively faster pace, with the last mile being at threshold pace, to mimic the suffering of the last 5 miles of the Marathon.
 
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Also, thanks for the 'balloon my head' compliments about my 'running talent' lol

But I think thats an overstatement, I don't think I have much talent at it at all...cept maybe that I'm light boned.


Really, if I'm gunna pat myself on the back for something related to running, its that I am not afraid of the unknown (the exploration of which is at the heart of distance running), and I'm fairly good at being in the moment and just putting one foot in front of the other.

Thanks for the compliment, but I am no special running talent by any stretch of the imagination lol


I think anyone in reasonable health can run 13 miles after a few weeks training, if they set aside fear and uncertainty, and just keep putting one foot in front of the other.




This guy inspires me a lot:


Yiannis Kouros

He is probably the greatest ultra runner ever, he broke over 150 world records at ultra running distances, and does not run more than 7.5 miles a day except in the actual races.

Some of his quotes:

"The pain is the reality, but your mind can inspire you past it,"

and

"when other people get tired they stop. I don't. I take over my body with my mind, I tell it that it's not tired and it listens."
 
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My treadmill tempo run did not go as planned, I wanted to do a 5k at 9:45 mm pace...I could only hold that pace for 2.1 miles on a 1.5 degree incline...it was a happy failure though, cause I sustained a sub 10 mm pace for much longer than I had before.

All those base miles are paying off though, cause I am recovering and ready to go again very quickly after a hard effort...so today I did a core strengthening routine, a full body circuit weight training, some one legged squats to build the glutes for running, and some lunges across the room and back...I then finished it off with a run outside barefoot on the concrete for a mile, just to get some bio-mechanical training muscle memory 'reps' with proper form.


Speaking of form...This week I switched to a midfoot strike from a forefoot strike...and started running with much more bent knees...I am probably running 3 inches shorter overall, and its murderous, cause all the strength that I built over the last 6-7 weeks is kinda having to be rebuilt with the new lower stance.


Patience Steve, Patience Steve, Patience Steve, Patience Steve.... :)



This is quickly turning into a training log, So I will create a thread in the training section.
 
Man, some of you aren't getting it. Steve ran a half marathon after just a few weeks of getting back into running and while 80 pounds overweight! He's got a lot of natural talent, so I don't think our standards and experiences necessarily apply. Plus, he's super aware of all the variables.

As for speed and tempo work, all the pro trainers say it's necessary for improving one's aerobic pace. One's aerobic pace will improve on its own, of course, especially if you're starting from a low level of conditioning, but speed and tempo work will accelerate the process and, eventually, allow you to break through the plateau that a pure volume approach will establish.


Lee, I thought you were in the "just run" group? But, you can't pass up a training schedule with numbers and a good debate.:)

I get it. Scanning some posts there are some warning signs. Knee pain and foot rebuild. Half marathons were done in shoes with a rough finish, mind over matter, foot pain after. Super aware of all the variables, but ignores them for the sake of a hard workout. Numbers, numbers, numbers, pace calculators, etc. If the weight were gone I could run this pace, etc. The pace improvements are impressive for a short time, but way to much too soon. Speed work on a soft surface is not a good idea if you can only handle 3 miles on concrete. Sooner or later you are going to have to get on pavement, that's where the marathon will be. Posts about the last part of a marathon being painful. Prepping to be able to handle the pain, it shouldn't be painful. Need I go on? Ask a pro trainer what to do, I bet he/she will back you off.

Look, I know the majority here are very conservative. For good reason, most have gone through the injuries. I know I am not a good voice of reason, if I followed my own advice I should be at the half marathon level.:)

Steve, I just want you to enjoy the journey and not be in such a rush. Do other activities for your high intensity workouts.
 
Lee, I thought you were in the "just run" group? But, you can't pass up a training schedule with numbers and a good debate.:).
Haha, guilty as charged :rolleyes:, although it wasn't the numbers that attracted me. I find it pretty easy to 'feel' aerobic and tempo paces, without a Garmin or HR, and I do like the feeling of running different paces. It's just that I'm too lazy or undisciplined to consistently implement a good weekly schedule that includes them in good proportion. And then of course winter always comes along and reduces everything to aerobic pace.

Lately I've even become too lazy to worry about my weekly mileage. I'm just running as far as I feel like, and it's very liberating. The only numbers in my head these days are those of my new Olympic grip plates. I'm enjoying rethinking my lifts in terms of the odd 90-pound increments imposed by 45-pound plates.

But you're right, there are plenty of warning signs in Steve's posts. And we, myself included, rightly offered words of caution. I just think there was a certain failure to recognize that, even if Steve were to back off some, he's still making phenomenal progress, and some of the standard advice might not apply. In the past, I've also questioned the general advice about avoiding speedwork until one has built up a good aerobic base. In my experience, pushing distance too early is a much greater risk than pushing speed too early. But I also started out relatively strong when I was getting back in shape, so I could be the exception, I dunno.

Steve, I wouldn't overdo the whole bent knee thing. Taking some of these form cues too literally can force one into an unnatural stride or posture. For me, it's far more important to make sure my shoulders are erect yet in a relaxed posture. If my posture is good and relaxed, and my arms have the correct amount of swing to them, then I tend to find my legs do just fine. The only thing I check down there is my foot landing, from time to time. But even there, the best diagnostic is sound. If you're landing pretty quietly, chances are your landing is just fine. When my foot landing used to be out of kilter, I could hear it.
 
Of course a problem is that we are all individual n=1 and that there are going to be some outliers out there. But how do you identify an outlier before the outlier does something that defies conventional wisdom and knowledge? I mean, before Emil Zatopek became Emil Zatopek, what could have shown him to be able to take on all the hard training that he did? He very likely did training that would have injured almost anyone else. The conventional wisdom doesn't negate Zatopek's existence, but Zatopek's existence doesn't exactly negate conventional wisdom either.

I also don't think anyone here is going to deny the idea that if someone wants to become a fast runner, there has to be some speed training. As I understand it, speed over distance is a combination of two systems, the aerobic system and the neuromuscular system. The neuromuscular system gets its biggest improvements from faster running -- short hill sprints like what Brad Hudson recommends, hill repeats, hill bounding, tempo runs do it some, fartleks and intervals. The question regarding those is how much is appropriate and when.

Then there's the easy running, which can contribute some to helping train the neuromuscular system and how efficient a runner's stride becomes. But perhaps the underappreciated aspect of that is how much it can do for the cardiovascular system. The problem with speed training is that it does very little for that. Up over a certain level, the heart muscle doesn't grow stronger or bigger. Up over a certain level, the cells don't get message to grow more mitochondria which are responsible for creating the energy that muscles use to run. And it all comes with that much greater risk of injury.

But with easy running, you can get all those cardio beneifts, plus do some basic strengthening to prepare the body for the rigors of speed work. Then when you think about that in combination with the idea of running a marathon where finishing times are most largely determined by aerobic capacity, it makes some sense to me that Arthur Lydiard's ideas are pretty damn good -- early on run easy mostly and prepare the body to later on do a period where speed work is incorporated.
 
OK, not to flog a dead horse, but in my experience, running longer distances too soon produced repetitive stress injuries like ITBS, and a sore MCL, and calf cramps. Part of the solution was to massage and stretch more, but part of the solution was also to run faster for shorter distances. Faster running to alleviate ITBS in particular was a common suggestion on an old ITBS thread that Abide or someone turned me on to.

So in my case anyway, LSD poses the greatest risk factor. I've never had any problem running tempo or sprints except perhaps being overly sore the next day due to the exhilaration and ensuing overexuberance that faster running can provoke. And my understanding is that there are plenty of modern training protocols that have overturned the Lydiard thinking. A lot of Kenyans, for example, apparently work on speed first, then distance. Get the form down first, in other words. Aerobic capacity can come later and will come quickly. First get strong and learn how to recruit the neuromuscular system. That worked for me. Once I was strong enough at lesser distances, it was a snap pumping up to half-marathonish distances within a few months, and the aerobic adaptation came pretty quickly too. In fact, I don't remember it ever being a factor. Also, I think at least some elite Kenyans train at a ratio of easy-to-difficult running something like 65/35, rather than the old, Lydiard-era standard of 80/20.

Currently, having allowed myself to get relatively out of running shape again, I'm thinking of resetting a bit, and finally putting the Kenyan theory of fast-first to a test. I'm thinking of really focusing on getting my pace up at shorter distances, and then when I reach my ideal aerobic pace at shorter distances, slowly add in the mileage. I may or may not include a weekend long run during this process. I would be hard to give up the long run completely for an extended time.

This is all intended as friendly debate. I just have a knee-jerk reaction to party-lines, especially when they go against my own experience. And I do believe the "strong first, conditioning second" protocol is making inroads in other areas of fitness and/or training. It's a trend worth considering.
 
Had a great run today...was supposed to be a 5 mile trail run...did a 6.57 mile STG run on concrete or equivalent surfaces, with each mile a faster split than the one before.

Double my previous STG concrete running length...and felt so good after the planned 5 mile mark that I just kept on going...Seems like it takes me about 5k of running just to get warmed up and loose these days.



I love days like today, I feel very Blessed...

Bless you all :)
 
adding in my $.10 cuz .02 just isn't enough. ;)

f=ma
force=mass*acceleration

your mass is fairly constant over a run. acceleration can change in a instant. therefore increasing your speed increases the force applied to the ground and your body. your muscles and skin will adapt fast but your bones won't. Wolf's law states it takes months for the bones to grow into the areas it's stressed. this is why everyone suggests take it easy at first.

don't ignore the strength training. no reason whatsoever to lift light with high reps. may as well curl pens all day long. lift heavy with low reps, not to fatigue.

i also don't see any point to speed work for distance running. tempo, yes. hills, yes. fartleks, big yes. track repeats, why? you need aerobic speed not short distance speed. strength and form first. distance will follow, then speed. i should say i wouldn't worry as much about speed as it will come into play as a result of everything clicking.

you are an experiment of n=1. finding what works best for you is part of the fun. just remember to have fun.
 
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