At least I got 6 years in......

Ronnie B

Barefooters
Feb 2, 2012
191
346
63
Bermuda
I mentioned in an earlier thread that I had been having pain and swelling in my right knee. The swelling got to the point where people would stop me and remark about one leg being much larger than the other - from mid thigh to ankle. (wear the traditional Bermuda shorts and long socks to work). As a workmate put it - "Looks like someone sewed the wrong leg onto your body."

Tried various medications and strengthening exercise - but nothing worked for very long. One day running downhill - experienced a very sharp pain behind the knee. XRays and an MRI showed osteoarthritis, a rather large Baker's Cyst - which was leaking (hence the swollen calf and ankles), a partially torn meniscus and "macerated" cartilage. As my GP put it - "dude you got one really messed up knee."

Lots of physiotherapy later, including a very painful shot of a substance to lubricate the knee better - all the docs are saying - "No more running. - Ride a bike to build up the muscles you need to support the knee." Problem is I quit biking 'cause I was taken out by a kid on a moped while riding.

I had knee problems and was close to quitting when I discovered barefoot running - through Michael Sandler and Jessica Lee's book - then discovered you guys sometime later. Thing is after I transitioned to BF running - not one blister along the way - all the pain went away and I was really enjoying running again - and my dogs were really loving running with me. No doubt years of running incorrectly - heel landing and the twisting, turning, sudden acceleration and stops in running agility courses with my dogs took its toll. Wish I had been taught to run properly earlier - or discovered BF running years earlier. The docs have the consensus that the BF running at least gave me those extra years of running - but the transition came too late to prevent the damage from getting bad. So now I walk and at some point gonna have to get over my fear of a bike and start riding again. I am pragmatic - thankful I can walk and can still be active.

At any rate - I will always remain a member and perhaps can contribute one day to the "People's Reactions to Barefoot Walking" thread! I wanted to say - barefoot running gave me 6 extra years of running that I would otherwise would not have had. Cheers to the BRS!
 
So now I walk and at some point gonna have to get over my fear of a bike and start riding again. I am pragmatic - thankful I can walk and can still be active.

At any rate - I will always remain a member and perhaps can contribute one day to the "People's Reactions to Barefoot Walking" thread! I wanted to say - barefoot running gave me 6 extra years of running that I would otherwise would not have had. Cheers to the BRS!

I'm in the same boat. I've been making the transition to barefoot cycling (check out the Ergon PC-2 pedals), and have mostly stuck to dedicated bike/pedestrian paths. My right knee still swells and stiffens a bit after a longer, plus-one-hour bike ride, but it may be adapting. I've also been able to resume squats and deadlifts, which help keep the knee strong, without any problem, so far. It sucks not to run, but hopefully we'll both be able to manage our knee issues and remain active for many years to come. Better than pancreatic cancer at any rate . . .
 
I too dislike riding on the road, at least around here with narrow unmarked roads where people drive 55+. But I'm lucky to have a bike path nearby. I still do the roads, but usually just to get to the bike path. And often I have the strobes going on the bike and wear bright orange shirt too (or put on a reflective vest if at night). I was bit confused following the story though, I take it your problems have come back?
 
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I too dislike riding on the road, at least around here with narrow unmarked roads where people drive 55+. But I'm lucky to have a bike path nearby. I still do the roads, but usually just to get to the bike path. And often I have the strobes going on the bike and wear bright orange shirt too (or put on a reflective vest if at night). I was bit confused following the story though, I take it your problems have come back?
Yah, my bike is full of reflective tape too, in addition to the lights, but I mostly cycle during the day. Like you, I'm only on roads when I have to connect bike paths. Luckily, the Twin Cities are the most bike-friendly metropolis in the land, and lots of streets have bike lanes now. Unfortunately, there's a faction of car drivers who are very anti-bike, so you have to watch out for them, but on the whole, most urban drivers are pretty bike-conscious.

My knee hasn't returned to normal yet, thanks for asking. It's been swollen and stiff to varying degrees for three months now, but there hasn't been any pain for two months, since I gave up first runs and then longer walks. Cycling seems to irritate the knee a bit. It stiffens up a bit after a ride, but without pain, and I'm hoping it will eventually adapt. Otherwise I might take a break from cycling, wait for the swelling to subside completely, and then try it again. I used to think deadlifts irritate it some, but I'm starting to question that. Squats seem therapeutic. So basically, I'm experimenting, trying to find the best way to manage it while remaining active, and letting pain be my main guide as to when I'm overdoing it.

Thanks again for the rec on the Ergon PC-2 pedals, both here and on Amazon. You helped me make the decision to try them out. I took them on a 11-mile maiden voyage yesterday morning and they were very comfortable. It felt great to be barefoot and feel the breeze cool my feet. I really hate having hot feet, which is the main reason I've been a casual barefooter most of my adult life. I miss the barefoot running though, and the greater plantar stimulation.

Yesterday my four-and-a-half-year-old son and I rode our bikes barefoot for almost a mile in the afternoon. He still has a little trouble steering, but otherwise, he's good-to-go without training wheels. Then his sister, almost four years older, asked to have her training wheels removed. So hopefully today we can get her going. She can already ride, she just needs that initial confidence. And so the romance of cycling is reborn, while the running dies a quiet death.
 
Don't forget about swimming! I really love my current generator in my little pool. No cars. No joint issues. Just have to remember not to breath underwater once I get in a zone and relax! :D
Thanks, yah, I'm thinking about checking it out this winter. The university pool is just a mile away. I'm a really bad swimmer though, so it may take a while to get into a good rhythm. It would be nice to know how to swim in fresh water better. I'm only good in the ocean with a snorkel and fins.

Plus swimming works the upper body too, something cycling and running mostly miss.

It would be great to have your set-up at home. I love my home gym. Or just live on the ocean as I used to . . . wake up, go for a swim, then eat papaya on the beach.
 
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Basically the damage was done over the years of running on the road incorrectly and no doubt the agility added to it. I was on the verge of quitting running - because of ankle, knee and hip pain when someone lent me the first book written by Michael Sandler and Jessica Lee. I transitioned to barefoot running over a period of about 3-6 months - and gradually all the pain went away. I ran absolutely pain free for 4 - 5 years. Last year I felt some pressure in the back of the knee (which I now know is a Baker's Cyst) and just followed doc's orders to "take it easy for a while" and do some leg raises. That worked for a bit. On New Year's Day - my right leg swelled to half as big again as the left. Stopped running, took anti-inflammatories and rested as best I could. We had an expedition cruise around Iceland in May and June - so that involved climbing, walking on rough terrain and getting in and out of Zodiacs in rough seas. Basically the BF running bought me time for running that I would not otherwise have had.

Bare-Lee -- when the kid took me out on my bike - I was a rolling billboard. Had on one of those really LOUD racing tops and helmet. Ray Charles would have seen me coming. No broken bones - but badly cut, lots of road rash and bruised - and shaken. Also - in another thread - my daughter broke her femur in a bike accident in 2013 and is still living with the pain, titanium rod and scarring from skin grafts associated with that incident. I just heard this morning that one of my daughter's friends is undergoing skin grafts this morning having lost 2 toes and has a broken femur in 4 places in a bike crash. It's going to take a giant leap of faith to get me back on a bike!

Ironically - living in Bermuda - have not been for a swim this year! Boat not in the water - renovating the house - hopefully to retire in two years. Still as I said - I am grateful to be able to walk and be active.
 
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Yah, I hear you, and I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't taken appropriate preventive measures. Also, I've cycled a lot in places like Bermuda, where drivers are perhaps less courteous to cyclists, and there's less road to share a lot of the times. So I can understand your reluctance to get out there and ride.

What I don't understand are the cyclists who pedal out on the road when there's a perfectly good bike path alongside it. I've seen this a lot here. Even on the U of M bus route, where there's a nice, smooth bike path, you see cyclists out in the bus lane, sometimes riding abreast, and the buses have to slow down to pass them.

Anyway, good luck on your post-running endeavors! My right knee has swollen up again after a day shuffling about at the State Fair. Not sure if I'll get my ride in today.
 
Bare-Lee -- when the kid took me out on my bike - I was a rolling billboard. Had on one of those really LOUD racing tops and helmet. Ray Charles would have seen me coming. No broken bones - but badly cut, lots of road rash and bruised - and shaken. Also - in another thread - my daughter broke her femur in a bike accident in 2013 and is still living with the pain, titanium rod and scarring from skin grafts associated with that incident. I just heard this morning that one of my daughter's friends is undergoing skin grafts this morning having lost 2 toes and has a broken femur in 4 places in a bike crash. It's going to take a giant leap of faith to get me back on a bike!

That's so sad to hear. We do take a big risk being out on the bike, no matter how bright or flashy you are, it only takes one person drunk/high/ or just plain old not paying attention-sometimes for just a mere couple seconds. I am a big fan of the dedicated bike paths though, and honestly looking at houses that was a bigger factor for me location wise than being close to a good town or shopping, etc.

BareLee - glad you like the PC2s. I do really like them though one was making noise I did get it to eventually go quiet again. I'm actually in the process of designing some custom pedals that will be full foot length rigid carbon fiber or similar. Perhaps a slight added degree of protection and also stuff so the foot itself isnt flexing and maybe less strain on the plantar fascia, etc. Might be a winter project.

Happysongbird - I so wish I had a pool! (and could swim haha)
 
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Thanks - no intention to think I was not being conspicuous on the roads. You have described biking in BDA very well - suicidal motorbike riders zipping in and out of traffic, too many trucks, buses and cars whizzing past you on very narrow roads with so many blind corners and driveways designed for smaller vehicles and slower speeds - and now potholes that can grab a front wheel and flip you over. Not much bike trails here either. I actually spend my time trying to talk visitors out of riding mopeds. I have a cousin and her husband - both ride - she has 600cc and he has an 800cc bike and ride all over the UK. They will not ride mopeds here! Good luck with the knee - mine has actually settled and had comfortable walks with the dogs over the weekend.
 
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Man, Ronnie. I'm so sad. I know what it's like to not be able to run anymore, mine due to shoe injury. It will be tough, but you'll make do. You'll be okay. Thanks for being a great member and sticking around!
 
Thanks - no intention to think I was not being conspicuous on the roads. You have described biking in BDA very well - suicidal motorbike riders zipping in and out of traffic, too many trucks, buses and cars whizzing past you on very narrow roads with so many blind corners and driveways designed for smaller vehicles and slower speeds - and now potholes that can grab a front wheel and flip you over. Not much bike trails here either. I actually spend my time trying to talk visitors out of riding mopeds. I have a cousin and her husband - both ride - she has 600cc and he has an 800cc bike and ride all over the UK. They will not ride mopeds here! Good luck with the knee - mine has actually settled and had comfortable walks with the dogs over the weekend.
Yah, places like that you have to be suicidal. The worst for me was probably Amman, Jordan. Very envious of your locale otherwise, especially as we say good-bye to summer up here in Minnesota, and begin to brace ourselves for another Midwestern winter.

Glad to hear your knee has settled down. I'm pretty sure if I gave mine complete rest, it would settle down too, as it has in the past when I didn't even know what was causing the swelling/clicking/pain. But a research fellow who was following around the last Ortho I saw, told me that "you can't hurt it, it can only hurt you." Meaning, I think, that my degenerative meniscus cartilage can't really be made much worse by (low-impact) activity, but it can be irritated and cause pain. So I'm continuing with my cycling and lifting on the theory that until it hurts, I'm not overdoing it. It's sort of an "active recovery" approach, although I don't know if that concept really applies to what I got. In any event, after a whole year of setbacks and rehabs, I'm very reluctant to rest now when things are starting to go well again, exercise-wise. I feel so much better when I get an hour of aerobic or anaerobic exercise in. I think the activities that affect it the most, from worst to least, are: running>walking>standing>cycling>deadlifts>squats>rowing>swimming. Just pushing a stroller a mile or two and standing in lines yesterday at the State Fair has made my knee more swollen that a two-hour bike ride.
 
Update on my note about my daughter's friend having broken his femur in 4 places - my wife knows his mother - he now has NO TOES on one foot - lost'em all against a coral wall.
The doctor who operated on my daughter's leg was a Gulf War surgeon - he says he is putting titanium rods in people's legs almost every weekend.....So much for the"idyllic slow pace of 35KPH!" Sooo - if anyone is visiting - please don't ride a moped unless you are a very experienced bike rider and never ever take a pillion passenger. Call me - I will take you around!
 
Man, Ronnie. I'm so sad. I know what it's like to not be able to run anymore, mine due to shoe injury. It will be tough, but you'll make do. You'll be okay. Thanks for being a great member and sticking around!



Thanks TJ - heck yes - I will get by just like you do. I gave myself a moment to be said - now that's over and off we go into the future. My wife and I have bought a house on the Isle of Wight in the UK and plan to retire there in a couple of years. Lots of dedicated bike trails there - that I am sure I can handle. We'll see how the finances go for the last 2 years of working life. Might be meeting Paul and company at some point.
 
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What I don't understand are the cyclists who pedal out on the road when there's a perfectly good bike path alongside it. I've seen this a lot here. Even on the U of M bus route, where there's a nice, smooth bike path, you see cyclists out in the bus lane, sometimes riding abreast, and the buses have to slow down to pass them.

I do this everyday! The path is not nearly as smooth as the road though, plus it's a little more direct and not full of slow walkers and bikers.
It's really fun watching bikers in London, those riders are insane.
 
Thanks TJ - heck yes - I will get by just like you do. I gave myself a moment to be said - now that's over and off we go into the future.
Yep, that's about it. It kinda sucks, but gotta move forward. It's still hard to get used to this new notion of greater fragility and brittleness though. I don't like the idea that my knees have already begun to rot well ahead of my projected expiration date some 40 years from now. Now I have to be careful and moderate, and occasionally curb my enthusiasm.

Anyway, all the best, and apologies for the half-hijack.

I do this everyday! The path is not nearly as smooth as the road though, plus it's a little more direct and not full of slow walkers and bikers.
It's really fun watching bikers in London, those riders are insane.
I was thinking more of the bike paths I use here, along the river and along the UM bus route. In the first case, the pedestrians and cyclists are usually separated, with two lanes each, and the asphalt is pretty good, so you can zip along pretty well. In the second case, along the bus route, cars are prohibited, and there are very few pedestrians on the bike path, as this route was constructed specifically to connect the St. Paul and Minneapolis campuses of the University of Minnesota. It would be a long walk, but a pretty easy bike ride, and a very fast bus commute.

I remember in parts of Germany the bike paths connecting towns became sidewalks once in the towns or villages, so you had to share them with pedestrians, and the paths were often narrow, like you say they are in Holland. When I got off the ferry in Denmark, however, I was pleased to see how well laid out the paths were, with lots of posted directions and distance indicators to many different destinations. Scandinavia in general was decent biking country--very courteous drivers for the most part.

Anyway, the older I get, the more risk-adverse I become. Plus I don't like riding with a helmet.
 
Ah, all you old guys and your knee talk are making me limp!

Actually, my right knee was really sore since Bare Lee started all this, though it's gotten somewhat better the last week or so. It actually feels better when I run, while walking can be iffy. Ice is my friend!

Ronnie, I hope you find a good, balanced way to exercise yourself and your pup. Good luck!
 
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Ah, all you old guys and your knee talk are making me limp!

Actually, my right knee was really sore since Bare Lee started all this, though it's gotten somewhat better the last week or so. It actually feels better when I run, while walking can be iffy. Ice is my friend!

Ronnie, I hope you find a good, balanced way to exercise yourself and your pup. Good luck!
Sorry to have infected you, JT. But I think Ronnie started it with his Ask the Docs post. At least we're not complaining about constipation yet.

It's pretty confounding trying to figure out what helps and what hurts. I've looked into it a bit, and there's no straight answer. Mark Cucuzzella says the meniscus likes loading, all three orthos I saw thought running should be the first thing to go, at least when the meniscus is degenerative. Squats seem to help me, not sure yet how much cycling I should be doing . . .

I've rediscovered ice myself, and also, it seems to help to massage just above the knee, where the quads come in. I'm also experimenting with stretching the hamstrings more and making sure my lower leg muscles are loose. I'm less vigilant about stretching and massaging now that I'm not running, but I think I need to get back to it regularly.

It would really suck if you stopped running. You were one of my original inspirations when I first started tuning in here.
 
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