Concurrent Strength Training & Running 2015: Eight-Week Workout Cycle IV

It pops a little, but nothing like it did last fall when I had what I thought was a hammie strain from deadlifting. At that time, I had to massage the quad just above the knee to unlock it.
The doc didn't have any idea about what caused the tear. Might just be getting old. Might be an active lifestyle most of my adult life, as you suggest. Might be the heavy deadlifts last summer. He said it wasn't recent. Seems like the minor knee issues I've had over the last few years when getting back into running have probably been this. I had what I thought was a sore MCL on my left knee almost three years ago. Now I'm thinking that might be the same issue over on that side. But the fact that I've been able to run pain-free most of the time makes it hard to accept that the best thing to do is to give up running. But I will gladly give up mostly pain-free running now in order to be able to walk pain-free 20 years from now, if that's what's at stake. I definitely don't want to do anything that will make it worse, or make it degrade faster. It's just kind of shocking to be confronted with this sort of old age issue all of a sudden. I thought I had at least another 20 years before I would have to start thinking about this stuff. Meanwhile my four-year-old son jumps from a six-foot rock into the sand no problem.

I was so confident yesterday, my knee was feeling better and I thought the doc would tell me he didn't see anything. Still, there's plenty I can do to stay in shape without stressing out the knee. Maybe I'll become really good at Good Mornings and Rack Pulls. I've also been reading a bit and some people think squats can actually be therapeutic, so there's a lot to look into. I hope my insurance will cover a visit to the experts my friend knows. I should be able to transfer the MRI to them, so even if I have to pay out-of-pocket, it will just be a consultation.

I thought the longterm prognosis for your shoulder was good? I know about the double whammy though, with my shingles and knee, and a lingering dry cough for the last few weeks too. Wait, that's a triple whammy. At least everything is improving this week. I thought you could still do presses and pullups, right? I'm already thinking about changing to some kind of upper/lower split, with the lower a mix of rowing, cycling/stairmaster, and light weights on Tuesday and Thursday, and maybe a longer bike ride on the weekends. For the upper, I could add in some more assistance. Still, it will be very hard to say good-bye to that incredible feeling you get from heavy squats and deadlifts, especially after having discovered that thrill so recently. Oh well, life goes on. It's not cancer . . .

It is difficult to know how much it will affect later in life, or what happened before is affecting us now. It seems that recreational biking is an easy one that most people can enjoy very late in their lives. Barring any accidents. But running isn't that clear especially since we are on the heavier spectrum? However I completely understand your sentiment. I also don't want to have to limp down the stairs when I am in my 50s because of my stubbornness.

Definitely get another opinion especially if surgery is at stake. Who knows maybe next week you can resume most things at a reduced level. Obviously if it happened long ago you have figured out a way to compensate for it.

I really don't know about the long term prognosis for my shoulder. Now I am at the point where I can do a pushup but after about 5 the whole joint gets very weak and unstable. I can do light one arm presses, but doing a real press was still painful last time I tried. I may try to get out there tonight to see if the bench and press are coming along. I might also switch over to incline presses as I've read they are a little easier after injuries. Rows are all pretty much back to normal I don't have any issues except for one armed rows. I just get worried about developing the rows too much?

I'm curious about trying out some deadlifts too. It seems like that small motion shouldn't be an issue for my knee. Again its the eccentric motion that aggravates it more than anything.

Oh by the way I also read uphill sprints can be a good thing with meniscus tears. I wonder if you can keep those up in your split. An yeah splits are pretty much all you can do now. I guess we should just embrace it and go with it, make it a little less tough to swallow.
 
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Hope you guys feel better soon!

I've resigned myself to the fact that those who live the the longest, are also at highest risk of accumulating unpleasant nonfatal conditions.

Did my first barbell workout today. Spare bedroom is a good size, but I could optimize the layout a bit more.

Still working on squatting comfortably. I think it's all soft tissue acclimatization. I'm only squatting as much as I can press, right now.

Deads were nice, but I'm still getting used to the barbell. I prefer barehanded, but my hands need to adapt.

Press was okay, but I need to move the bench, so I can easily do them seated. I feel that I'm better able to keep my low back safe this way.

Scratched up one of my bumpers a bit, when removing the plate. Got the jack stands from the garage, and that made things much easier. Definitely the way to go. My jack stands are low, so the loaded barbell is only around 0.5" off the ground. It wasn't too bad, loading and unloading the plates between different sets. Though, I think I'm still going to get more bars when it's time for the rack.

Wipe off the bumpers with 20% isopropyl alcohol, another item from car care. They were still a bit greasy. Vinylex probably didn't help.

Bumpers have that rubber tire smell. No big deal, just turned on the ceiling fan. The industrial smell is motivating. Kind of like when working on a car.

I'm not sure that I really need the collars, but it will be good to have one set on hand.

Definitely worth the investment thus far. I just wish that the rack that I want wasn't another $1700. I suppose that it should prevent accumulating more unpleasant nonfatal conditions.
 
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It is difficult to know how much it will affect later in life, or what happened before is affecting us now. It seems that recreational biking is an easy one that most people can enjoy very late in their lives. Barring any accidents. But running isn't that clear especially since we are on the heavier spectrum? However I completely understand your sentiment. I also don't want to have to limp down the stairs when I am in my 50s because of my stubbornness.

Definitely get another opinion especially if surgery is at stake. Who knows maybe next week you can resume most things at a reduced level. Obviously if it happened long ago you have figured out a way to compensate for it.

I really don't know about the long term prognosis for my shoulder. Now I am at the point where I can do a pushup but after about 5 the whole joint gets very weak and unstable. I can do light one arm presses, but doing a real press was still painful last time I tried. I may try to get out there tonight to see if the bench and press are coming along. I might also switch over to incline presses as I've read they are a little easier after injuries. Rows are all pretty much back to normal I don't have any issues except for one armed rows. I just get worried about developing the rows too much?

I'm curious about trying out some deadlifts too. It seems like that small motion shouldn't be an issue for my knee. Again its the eccentric motion that aggravates it more than anything.

Oh by the way I also read uphill sprints can be a good thing with meniscus tears. I wonder if you can keep those up in your split. An yeah splits are pretty much all you can do now. I guess we should just embrace it and go with it, make it a little less tough to swallow.
Got an appointment in two weeks with my friend's doc. My insurance covers it with a small co-pay.
Yah, biking is a good bet for life-long aerobic, it's just that I enjoy running more, and it's more efficient. But who knows, maybe I'll get hooked once I discover some good bike routes with minimal traffic. Rowing is a great exercise, but it's incredibly boring inside. I guess I could learn how to swim better, but swimming seems like such a hassle. Anyway, lots of options, no excuses. The heart is the most important muscle and all that . . .

The doc I saw yesterday said I might consider slow eccentric squats, so that's something I'll ask the other doc about too.

With your shoulder, it could take 6-12 months before it's 100%. I definitely wouldn't push things at all. I regret walking on my swollen knee a few weeks ago, although I don't know if that damaged it any more, it definitely brought on the the pain. Just dumb.

I can't really see how you could over-emphasize the rows. I'm actually a little excited to have a few weeks now to really attack the back with rows and pulldowns. Maybe even try to do some pullups again. I'm also going to make more of an effort to shed some of this excess weight.

Yeah, I think hills would be OK. I even asked my doc about it but he pooh-poohed the idea. It sure worked when I was rehabbing my stubbbed toe. A lot less impact.

It will all depend on what the second doc says, but one way or the other, there are plenty of ways to stay in shape without running and heavy squats and deadlifts, if it comes to that. Just have to embrace the new reality, as you say. I find goals help motivate me quite a bit, so I'm going to tweak my program a bit to bring up all four of my upper body lifts. Before, my presses were a lot more advanced than my deadlift and squat, according to the Iron Ratio, so I put the former on the back burner, but now, in the short-to-medium-term, I can devote more time and energy to them, as well as work in the dumbbell variations and accessory lifts like dips and pullovers more diligently.

But if I'm no longer a runner, let alone a barefoot runner, do I still participate on this site?
 
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Got an appointment in two weeks with my friend's doc. My insurance covers it with a small co-pay.
Yah, biking is a good bet for life-long aerobic, it's just that I enjoy running more, and it's more efficient. But who knows, maybe I'll get hooked once I discover some good bike routes with minimal traffic. Rowing is a great exercise, but it's incredibly boring inside. I guess I could learn how to swim better, but swimming seems like such a hassle. Anyway, lots of options, no excuses. The heart is the most important muscle and all that . . .

The doc I saw yesterday said I might consider slow eccentric squats, so that's something I'll ask the other doc about too.

With your shoulder, it could take 6-12 months before it's 100%. I definitely wouldn't push things at all. I regret walking on my swollen knee a few weeks ago, although I don't know if that damaged it any more, it definitely brought on the the pain. Just dumb.

I can't really see how you could over-emphasize the rows. I'm actually a little excited to have a few weeks now to really attack the back with rows and pulldowns. Maybe even try to do some pullups again. I'm also going to make more of an effort to shed some of this excess weight.

Yeah, I think hills would be OK. I even asked my doc about it but he pooh-poohed the idea. It sure worked when I was rehabbing my stubbbed toe. A lot less impact.

It will all depend on what the second doc says, but one way or the other, there are plenty of ways to stay in shape without running and heavy squats and deadlifts, if it comes to that. Just have to embrace the new reality, as you say. I find goals help motivate me quite a bit, so I'm going to tweak my program a bit to bring up all four of my upper body lifts. Before, my presses were a lot more advanced than my deadlift and squat, according to the Iron Ratio, so I put the former on the back burner, but now, in the short-to-medium-term, I can devote more time and energy to them, as well as work in the dumbbell variations and accessory lifts like dips and pullovers more diligently.

But if I'm no longer a runner, let alone a barefoot runner, do I still participate on this site?

Yeah of course its an all inclusive board, how much do we talk about running anyway? I agree with you about rowing or any repetitive cardio inside.

Ok that's good to hear about the rows, and about the length of time for the shoulder to heal. Well its sucks to hear that it takes that long but it helps put it into perspective. My knee is still swollen but I think its mainly damage to the IT band. Its getting better each day but there is still pain there all the time. It helps when the leg is fully extended. I can do a legit slow BW squat now and I am going to do the slow eccentrics as your doc recommended. Sometimes I think the scar tissue development causes half the issue in these things.

I would love to run up the hills right now but my problem is you have to come down. Maybe I'll join the local gym they have a stair stepper and a treadmill that I could use for a month or two till the boredom drives me insane?

You could always do the bodybuilder thing too for now to explore the muscle development option nuckols talks about. I guess maybe that is something I consider, trying to work at 8-12 rep ranges for the next cycle. I still haven't gotten into the gym. I am really trying hard to get caught up in sleep first.



I did something like this but I used a 2x4 and basically made a frame that supported the ends of the bumpers. I didn't have weight separations because it took up too much space and the weights really support themselves fine. Basically a less fancy version of this and the side braces were angled to support the curve of the bumper.

15301.jpg
 
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Yeah of course its an all inclusive board, how much do we talk about running anyway? I agree with you about rowing or any repetitive cardio inside.

Ok that's good to hear about the rows, and about the length of time for the shoulder to heal. Well its sucks to hear that it takes that long but it helps put it into perspective. My knee is still swollen but I think its mainly damage to the IT band. Its getting better each day but there is still pain there all the time. It helps when the leg is fully extended. I can do a legit slow BW squat now and I am going to do the slow eccentrics as your doc recommended. Sometimes I think the scar tissue development causes half the issue in these things.

I would love to run up the hills right now but my problem is you have to come down. Maybe I'll join the local gym they have a stair stepper and a treadmill that I could use for a month or two till the boredom drives me insane?

You could always do the bodybuilder thing too for now to explore the muscle development option nuckols talks about. I guess maybe that is something I consider, trying to work at 8-12 rep ranges for the next cycle. I still haven't gotten into the gym. I am really trying hard to get caught up in sleep first.
Well, as long as you guys are on this forum/thread, and we keep enjoying logging our training cycles, I guess there's no reason to leave, even if I never run another step. It will really suck though if I have to give up two things I really love and have turned on to so recently--barefoot running and heavy squats. But at least I'm still a barefooter.

After yesterday's short workout, my knee hurt a lot for an hour or two, so I'm wondering if the kneeling pulldowns and presses hurt the knee, as you suspected. I should go back to doing those things seated. Then I need to think more about whether I should do them supported or not. I have an adjustable bench in storage that I could use for supported seated presses. I could probably lift more that way, and therefore develop the targeted muscles better, but it seems a little like cheating, and my stabilizers wouldn't get worked as well . . . .

Today my right knee feels 100%, but my left knee feels a little unstable . . . I probably have the same thing going on there, and should probably get an MRI done on that one too, but I'll wait till I see the new doc about my right knee. Two weeks is going to be a long time to wait for my appointment, but my friend recommended him highly, so I don't want to see one of his partners. It's a big suburban clinic dedicated exclusively to Orthopedics and Sports Medicine: www.tria.com.

I read up more on meniscus tears, and as my friend told me, it is possible to suture them these days, with better results than simply cutting out the damaged part, which is what the first doc said he would do if the pain persists.

On days like today, when the knee feels fine, it's really hard to believe I can't squat on it. I guess it's going to be harder to give up the heavy squats and deadlifts than running, although I suspect the deadlifts may have been the hardest on it.

When I run hills, I usually walk down, especially if it's a shorter hill.

For rows, my fitness philosophy is that you first take care of the heart and lungs, then build a strong back, then work on mobility in the shoulders and hips. I think those are the four basic components of good fitness, which correspond to aerobic exercise, lifting, and mobility work, the three components that Kilgore emphasizes. So I don't see how you could ever do too many rows, or any type of back work. The imbalance seems to always be doing too much front/chest work.

If I were you, I would abandon the idea of doing any more ultras until you're fully healed up. The risk of long-term damage is just too great. We're both stubborn, and that's a good trait, but you have to know when to pull back. I'm still mad at myself for walking six miles on a stiff/swollen knee that began hurting within a mile of starting the walk. Just dumb. Seems like for each issue/niggle, I have to relearn the lesson of "retreating so that you can live to fight another day."

I was just guessing about the length of time it will take your shoulder to heal. I'm just saying that you should be prepared for that, but hopefully it will take less time. Whatever you do, don't push the presses if it hurts to do so.

Yah, working out without the lower body stuff isn't very satisfying, although that's how I used to lift for the most part. But I can get in more things like Weighted Back Extensions and the Landmine Twist that work the back/lower back. But it probably makes more sense to move into more of a bodybuilder routine. It's funny that Nuckols, and Tate too, are espousing bodybuilding approaches these days. But the higher rep stuff is definitely easier on the joints. If I end up having to drop squats and deadlifts for good, I'll become weaker, but will probably look stronger with a greater emphasis on upper body stuff. Still hoping I can do lighter squats though. I'm wondering if I can always do them with a eight-rep count, and just add weight when that starts to feel easy. It would be hard for me to do any lift more than eight lifts though. I don't have the mental fortitude, and it turns the workout into a chore.

I think inside aerobic stuff is probably best done HIIT, to minimize the boredom.

Good luck catching up on your sleep. That's what I've been doing now that my post-shingles pain has been subsiding. Feel much better now.

I agree putting plate holders on the rack is the best option. They're right there where you need them, and they help stabilize the rack.
 
considering all the ailments going around, perhaps it's time for some "simulated annealing" and dropping all the loads way back and very slowly increase while all the swelling and scarring and healing and what not goes on. i keep hearing a familiar theme about how we'd like to be able to waddle into the auditorium under our own power and actually be able to hear our great-grandchildren's high school band concert or whatever. so keep trying to maintain the long/slow perspective. but, i totally understand the go-go-go-now-now-now!!! perspective.
 
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considering all the ailments going around, perhaps it's time for some "simulated annealing" and dropping all the loads way back and very slowly increase while all the swelling and scarring and healing and what not goes on. i keep hearing a familiar theme about how we'd like to be able to waddle into the auditorium under our own power and actually be able to hear our great-grandchildren's high school band concert or whatever. so keep trying to maintain the long/slow perspective. but, i totally understand the go-go-go-now-now-now!!! perspective.

WTG BA!
 
considering all the ailments going around, perhaps it's time for some "simulated annealing" and dropping all the loads way back and very slowly increase while all the swelling and scarring and healing and what not goes on. i keep hearing a familiar theme about how we'd like to be able to waddle into the auditorium under our own power and actually be able to hear our great-grandchildren's high school band concert or whatever. so keep trying to maintain the long/slow perspective. but, i totally understand the go-go-go-now-now-now!!! perspective.

So what's your recommendation for the cardio stuff? That's were my issues came from, although one was from wiping out. Which technically is a risk on the bike regardless.

I haven't had a bona fide gym related injury in a long time, since back when I did CF if I remember correctly.
 
But at least I'm still a barefooter.
Yep that's my claim here as well. Well I often wear my luna's but I prefer to be barefoot...

After yesterday's short workout, my knee hurt a lot for an hour or two, so I'm wondering if the kneeling pulldowns and presses hurt the knee, as you suspected. I should go back to doing those things seated. Then I need to think more about whether I should do them supported or not. I have an adjustable bench in storage that I could use for supported seated presses. I could probably lift more that way, and therefore develop the targeted muscles better, but it seems a little like cheating, and my stabilizers wouldn't get worked as well . . . .
I think right now it's probably best to switch to seated. I didn't even think about that again until now but it could cause some of the irritation.

If I were you, I would abandon the idea of doing any more ultras until you're fully healed up. The risk of long-term damage is just too great. We're both stubborn, and that's a good trait, but you have to know when to pull back. I'm still mad at myself for walking six miles on a stiff/swollen knee that began hurting within a mile of starting the walk. Just dumb. Seems like for each issue/niggle, I have to relearn the lesson of "retreating so that you can live to fight another day.".

I hear ya, I cancelled my reservation for this weekends staged bike race. I have another race scheduled for July 25th that I am hoping I can walk it by then, but we will see. Otherwise I'll just have a nice romantic weekend by myself in France. Then its three weeks to the LV 100 mountain bike race and then another week to the LV 100 trail run. The problem with these things for me is the trip is already booked. Maybe in the future I will keep things more local.

Things are getting a little better today like you are experiencing. I could bench light weight almost pain free. I think I am going to have to stick with the pause bench technique. The quick rebound seems to be a source of irritation. I also tried to deadlift today and I had no problem with the knee. I am going to do a build up workout this weekend and see what kind of weight is comfortable. Weighted squats are out for a bit, but I can use the TBDL with body weight without pain.

So that's something to work with. Now the slow gradual rebuild per BA!
 
Yep that's my claim here as well. Well I often wear my luna's but I prefer to be barefoot...

I think right now it's probably best to switch to seated. I didn't even think about that again until now but it could cause some of the irritation.

I hear ya, I cancelled my reservation for this weekends staged bike race. I have another race scheduled for July 25th that I am hoping I can walk it by then, but we will see. Otherwise I'll just have a nice romantic weekend by myself in France. Then its three weeks to the LV 100 mountain bike race and then another week to the LV 100 trail run. The problem with these things for me is the trip is already booked. Maybe in the future I will keep things more local.

Things are getting a little better today like you are experiencing. I could bench light weight almost pain free. I think I am going to have to stick with the pause bench technique. The quick rebound seems to be a source of irritation. I also tried to deadlift today and I had no problem with the knee. I am going to do a build up workout this weekend and see what kind of weight is comfortable. Weighted squats are out for a bit, but I can use the TBDL with body weight without pain.

So that's something to work with. Now the slow gradual rebuild per BA!

That's how I came across that Ironmaster bench, thinking about seated presses again, and whether they should be done supported or unsupported. Unsupported works the stabilizers more, supported permits more weight to be loaded. Then I saw that bench has neat dip and chin-up attachments. It even has an attachment for back extensions and reverse hypers. Those will be crucial in maintaining lower back strength if I can't do deadlifts anymore (maybe straight-legged deadlifts?). And I've never been completely satisfied with my DIY dip station and chin-up handles bolted onto my rack. Plus an adjustable bench would be nice for chest-supported rows and pullovers and a few other things. It sucks to be moving from more of a powerlifter/full body mentality to a split/bodybuider, but if I can't do heavy squats and deadlifts, it seems like the most sensible approach. Any thoughts?

Yeah, I was thinking about your reservations and entrance fee. Too late to cancel. I'm sure this happens to a lot of people. They should sell insurance on the side. You said LV is walkable, right?

My knee is a lot better, but now I'm experiencing some instability in the other knee. From what I've read, most probably I have a degenerative meniscus tear, so it will never really heal, and the other knee probably has it too. It's just something I have to learn to manage and/or work around. So I'm probably screwed as far as running goes. Over the last 18 months I've gotten pretty good at the slow, gradual rebuild, but with this issue, there's really little that can be done. My best chance is for some surgery to repair the tear, and then, hopefully work light squats back in. That T-Nation article recommended speed squats with chains, so that you have less load coming out of the hole, when the stress on the knee is the greatest. The doc I saw on Tuesday recommended slow eccentrics, to eliminate the 'bounce' at the bottom of the hole. But with heavy squats, you never really bounce that much, right? It's funny though, last fall deadlifts seem to irritate it more, and squats seemed to be therapeutic. So I wonder if the proscription against squats with a meniscus tear is part of the general anti-squat mentality obtaining in the medical community, or if they really do put the degenerating cartilage more at risk. Anyway, I'll have to wait to hear what the other doc says in two weeks. After spending several weeks barely able to walk or do stairs, I'm quite grateful to be walking relatively pain-free again, and I'll always have that in the back of my mind when assessing long-term risks of continuing to squat. One thing's almost for sure: my running days are over. And that really, really sucks.

I think the T-Nation article also recommended TBDLs, so maybe I'll try that too. It's cool you're able to reintegrate some bench pressing again. I'm thinking I may make a push on the pullups, so maybe start each workout with the OHP, then Pullups/pulldowns, then Bench, then really blast the back with rows, landmine twists, and back extensions. I may even have to reconsider heavy hip thrusts as a sub for heavy squats on my lower body day.

I've also been plotting out some nice bike circuits. There's at least three 1-2 hour routes I could do while staying on dedicated bike paths for the most part.

Who knows, with a new routine, I might end up more fit, but a little less strong. Trying to see the silver lining, always look on the bright side, and all that . . .
 
That's how I came across that Ironmaster bench, thinking about seated presses again, and whether they should be done supported or unsupported. Unsupported works the stabilizers more, supported permits more weight to be loaded. Then I saw that bench has neat dip and chin-up attachments. It even has an attachment for back extensions and reverse hypers. Those will be crucial in maintaining lower back strength if I can't do deadlifts anymore (maybe straight-legged deadlifts?). And I've never been completely satisfied with my DIY dip station and chin-up handles bolted onto my rack. Plus an adjustable bench would be nice for chest-supported rows and pullovers and a few other things. It sucks to be moving from more of a powerlifter/full body mentality to a split/bodybuider, but if I can't do heavy squats and deadlifts, it seems like the most sensible approach. Any thoughts?

Well I think this could be where higher rep squats and deadlifts can work well. Maybe just top out a squat weight of 135 and a deadlift of 225 and just build up to 20 rep sets. TBDL, SLDL and hip thrusts are also good options I think. From what I briefly read the rehab work for meniscus tears seems to be the same for ITBS, just developing the muscular support system. Also If you ever get your neutral grip bar, the P rows are an amazing lower back workout and really react well to 10 rep sets.

Yeah, I was thinking about your reservations and entrance fee. Too late to cancel. I'm sure this happens to a lot of people. They should sell insurance on the side. You said LV is walkable, right?
Ha they do sell insurance but once you add it up for the race, flight etc... your talking big bucks. So I always opt out.

No its not walkable I think I will need to run at the very least ~30 miles. They structured their cut offs to coincide with running finishes so you basically need to run a big chunk of the first 20 miles. So we will see, if it gets closer and there are still issues I might just opt out and try to get them to transfer the bib to my wife. I think though I might be able to rehab this thing and figure out how to do a successful run walk thing. But we will see.

BTW speaking of which have you or anyone ever tried dry needling? I did some prolotherapy treatments for my PF and it was very successful but its hard to find it here, but they do dry needling regularly which is a similar treatment. I think I might give it a try next week for a couple of treatments.

My knee is a lot better, but now I'm experiencing some instability in the other knee. From what I've read, most probably I have a degenerative meniscus tear, so it will never really heal, and the other knee probably has it too. It's just something I have to learn to manage and/or work around. So I'm probably screwed as far as running goes. Over the last 18 months I've gotten pretty good at the slow, gradual rebuild, but with this issue, there's really little that can be done. My best chance is for some surgery to repair the tear, and then, hopefully work light squats back in. That T-Nation article recommended speed squats with chains, so that you have less load coming out of the hole, when the stress on the knee is the greatest. The doc I saw on Tuesday recommended slow eccentrics, to eliminate the 'bounce' at the bottom of the hole. But with heavy squats, you never really bounce that much, right? It's funny though, last fall deadlifts seem to irritate it more, and squats seemed to be therapeutic. So I wonder if the proscription against squats with a meniscus tear is part of the general anti-squat mentality obtaining in the medical community, or if they really do put the degenerating cartilage more at risk. Anyway, I'll have to wait to hear what the other doc says in two weeks. After spending several weeks barely able to walk or do stairs, I'm quite grateful to be walking relatively pain-free again, and I'll always have that in the back of my mind when assessing long-term risks of continuing to squat. One thing's almost for sure: my running days are over. And that really, really sucks.

Well it's probably similar to my shoulder, and actually paused body weight squats are all I can do right now too, but the tension built with the rebound can be very irritating to the inflamed joint. I think with higher weights you do utilize the rebound more than you think. You might not hit the bottom of the hole as much as you can with lighter weights but I bet you the muscular tension on the joints is greater with heavy weights.

So you could also do lighter high rep pause squats?

I thought they only did surgery on higher grades of tears? What did the doc grade yours as?

I think the T-Nation article also recommended TBDLs, so maybe I'll try that too. It's cool you're able to reintegrate some bench pressing again. I'm thinking I may make a push on the pullups, so maybe start each workout with the OHP, then Pullups/pulldowns, then Bench, then really blast the back with rows, landmine twists, and back extensions. I may even have to reconsider heavy hip thrusts as a sub for heavy squats on my lower body day.

I've also been plotting out some nice bike circuits. There's at least three 1-2 hour routes I could do while staying on dedicated bike paths for the most part.

Who knows, with a new routine, I might end up more fit, but a little less strong. Trying to see the silver lining, always look on the bright side, and all that . . .

Nice, I think you'll end up enjoying the biking more than you think. I actually have been doing some language courses on my bike rides. Its pretty easy to focus compared to running.

Yeah who knows, your keeping the fundamentals similar just the loads a little lighter for certain lifts. To be honest who knows maybe over time you will end up being stronger with this method?
 
Well I think this could be where higher rep squats and deadlifts can work well. Maybe just top out a squat weight of 135 and a deadlift of 225 and just build up to 20 rep sets. TBDL, SLDL and hip thrusts are also good options I think. From what I briefly read the rehab work for meniscus tears seems to be the same for ITBS, just developing the muscular support system. Also If you ever get your neutral grip bar, the P rows are an amazing lower back workout and really react well to 10 rep sets.

Well it's probably similar to my shoulder, and actually paused body weight squats are all I can do right now too, but the tension built with the rebound can be very irritating to the inflamed joint. I think with higher weights you do utilize the rebound more than you think. You might not hit the bottom of the hole as much as you can with lighter weights but I bet you the muscular tension on the joints is greater with heavy weights.

So you could also do lighter high rep pause squats?
Yah, reading around a bit, those look like my best substitutes. For squats, sub in lighter, higher reps, and/or box squats and/or squats with chains and/or pause squats, plus hip thrusts. For deadlifts, SLDL (bi- or unilateral) or RDL. I don't really see doing the TBDL because I would still be bending my knees a lot. Also for DL subs, more weighted back extensions and/or reverse hypers, and rack pulls with or without a band. Maybe pull-throughs? I don't want to add every rinky dink exercise out there though. I would be good to settle on just a few substitutes for each lift.

I've been doing the P-Rows with a straight barbell, and yeah, I've come to love them. The secret has been deloading after each rep, to take the strain of the lower back.

Ha they do sell insurance but once you add it up for the race, flight etc... your talking big bucks. So I always opt out.

No its not walkable I think I will need to run at the very least ~30 miles. They structured their cut offs to coincide with running finishes so you basically need to run a big chunk of the first 20 miles. So we will see, if it gets closer and there are still issues I might just opt out and try to get them to transfer the bib to my wife. I think though I might be able to rehab this thing and figure out how to do a successful run walk thing. But we will see.

BTW speaking of which have you or anyone ever tried dry needling? I did some prolotherapy treatments for my PF and it was very successful but its hard to find it here, but they do dry needling regularly which is a similar treatment. I think I might give it a try next week for a couple of treatments.

Dry needling, is that two stoic Minnesotans making fun of one another?

I guess if you can run 30 miles with little or no training beforehand, it's worth a shot. I would definitely not run through any pain though. I can't emphasize enough how nice it's been the last few days walking relatively pain-free. Just little things like getting up to pee are a hassle when you have knee-pain. Don't do anything to risk long-term damage.

I thought they only did surgery on higher grades of tears? What did the doc grade yours as?
There's two kinds of meniscus tears, acute and degenerative. Acute tears happens while active, usually by twisting, and are more conducive to repair. With Degenerative, which is what happens in middle-age, active or not, there's not much you can do, but lately, it seems, there's been more of an effort to repair those too instead of just cutting out the torn part to reduce pain. That's why I really want a second opinion, because my first doc just threw up his hands and said all he could do is cut out the tear if it continued to provoke pain. So when my friend mentioned his ortho guy, it immediately gave me hope. Not all docs are created equal, and someone with greater skill or greater interest in keeping up with the latest techniques might try a repair on me. The other reason I want a second opinion is to get a better idea of what my exercise options are. Who knows, maybe he'll say running is out, but heavy squats and deadlifts are still OK? It's going to be a long two weeks till I see him.
Nice, I think you'll end up enjoying the biking more than you think. I actually have been doing some language courses on my bike rides. Its pretty easy to focus compared to running.
Funny you mentioned language tapes. I taught myself French while listening to language tapes while biking. I had took two quarters of French Extension classes after college, so I had some background, but the endless repetition did wonders. I would never have had the patience just to sit down and listen for hours. I also like(d) to listen to my field recordings while running, and you're right, it's a lot easier to focus while biking than while running. And unlike music, you can still hear all the ambient sounds while listening to spoken language recordings, so it's safe while cycling. So there's that.

Yeah who knows, your keeping the fundamentals similar just the loads a little lighter for certain lifts. To be honest who knows maybe over time you will end up being stronger with this method?
Yeah, especially if I can sub squat and deadlift variations instead of having to give them altogether. I could actually keep my routine relatively intact by just subbing those sorts of things in. I would still be getting in a full-body workout, and with lighter weights, I wouldn't be spending as much time on warm-up sets. So then I could keep Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday as a pure cardio day, with a mix of rowing/biking and maybe something stupid like an elipitical.