Optimal strength training for runners

I do get pain in the shoulder too from deadlifting but more on the side and top. I think like you said its also some type of soft tissue pain, tendon or muscular but I am not sure. The osteo claimed I had and impingement but it didn't really seem right, I had complete shoulder mobility with no weak points. So I self diagnosed biceps tendonitis and treated it like that and it pretty much went away except for some minor flare ups here and there.
I'll look into biceps tendonitis, but the whole problem began while doing upright rows with those ungraded barbells in Mozambique, so it's confusing. A few years ago an orthopedist checked me out and said my shoulder looked great in the x-ray and according to his strength and mobility tests, I have a better shoulder than some of the college football players he sees.

Just to clarify, on Monday, the pain was there before doing the deadlifts, and was kind of shooting up and down the whole triceps/back upper arm, and would occasionally lock-out the arm painfully. I stretched it quite a bit in between sets by grabbing one of the posts and pulling away in a twisting motion and it actually got better as the workout progressed. So I don't think deadlifts were aggravating it. I used to think it was the presses, now I'm wondering if it's the upper body pulls, as you suggest, but I'm also wondering if it's really anything in particular and maybe just a joint that's in need of some greater inter-workout attention, now that I'm getting older. The way it moves around is odd.

What's the deal by the way? It's Wednesday and you haven't posted any workouts for this week.

I've been kind of freaked out the last week, as I make these strength gains, and realize I may have more potential than I thought. I'm wondering where it's going to end. I like the idea of being fit, but I've never aspired to being a muscle-bound dude. I don't want people to start treating me like a dumb meathead.
 
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Yeah the thing about these joints is your muscles develop 3-4 times as fast as your support structure (allegedly) so some pain or irritation is always going to be evident (allegedly again). I wonder if this is why often you plateau in strength training to get these pieces of the puzzle up to par.

Just keep riding it eventually it will slow down and then you can cut back right? And damn those stereotypes of meatheads!

Sorry I've been busy the last few days running errands and doing chores. I just posted the last couple of workouts.
 
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I'm still thinking about your down-pyramding scheme? Is it like herbal life or Amway?
Goofing around aside I wonder why we don't see it more often in programs? Too much CNS impact? It seems like it could be very effective?
 
Yeah the thing about these joints is your muscles develop 3-4 times as fast as your support structure (allegedly) so some pain or irritation is always going to be evident (allegedly again). I wonder if this is why often you plateau in strength training to get these pieces of the puzzle up to par.

Just keep riding it eventually it will slow down and then you can cut back right? And damn those stereotypes of meatheads!

Sorry I've been busy the last few days running errands and doing chores. I just posted the last couple of workouts.
Yah, I dunno. I've been doing heavier deadlifts and squats than I ever have before, and I've had little problem in my knees and hips--just a slightly sore MCL twice, I think, and that's the same MCL that I hurt acutely while getting my running up to speed, so I don't think it's st per se. And anyway, the last time it felt sore I was still deadlifting below 300 I think. It's been fine for quite a while, and I'm putting it under a lot of stress with these attempts at 1RM. My knees also seem to be holding up well with the deep squats.

When I had problems with ITBS, it was kind of the same thing, waiting for the supporting structure to catch up to the muscles, but also learning to stretch more. Hopefully the shoulder is the same thing. I just need to restore full ROM and be more diligent about massaging it. Right now I can actually pinpoint the trigger point, and it's extremely painful. It would be great to hire a masseuse for 10 minutes a day to work just that shoulder.

Yah, I'm going to ride it, or actually push it, until at least 405 DL, 356 Squat, and 275 Bench. Hopefully 185 Press too. I'm pretty sure that would mean about 10-15 pounds of extra mass, even if I manage to lose the 30 extra pounds of fat I'm carrying. But I have a sense that if I go much beyond that, the gains would be mostly in density and neural ability, I dunno. The meathead sites talk about hard-gainers but I think I'm an easy-gainer. In karate there was this one dude half my size who could bench 100 kg just like me.

It's just a little freaky to realize that a 455 DL, 405 Squat, 315 Bench, and 225 Press might all be possible. It could take a few years, but I'm see now that Rippetoe and others who advocate focusing on the big lifts are absolutely right. What they don't mention as much as they might, however, is this amazing synergy that you get when you do all the basic lifts together. It's implied of course. I'm still just amazed that I went from 225 to 240 on the bench yesterday without even trying. I would've thought it would take several months, going up five pounds per month and really working at it, but no, apparently the deadlifts, squats, and rows did the work for me. I guess the meatheads call this "transference." Well, the concept is real!

Here's a recent article from T-Nation on the Bench:
http://www.t-nation.com/training/4-bench-press-lies
Seems spot on to me, although I'm not really sure what my bar path is.

But yeah, I'll just have to get used to the stereotypes I guess. I'm waiting for summer clearance so I can pick up some XXL shirts. I'm outgrowing my XLs, which has been my shirt size forever. I'm also moving into size 38 waist after sitting at 36 for a decade or two.

Anyway, I'll be out of internet contact until Sunday or Monday.
I'm still thinking about your down-pyramding scheme? Is it like herbal life or Amway?
Goofing around aside I wonder why we don't see it more often in programs? Too much CNS impact? It seems like it could be very effective?
Yeah, you know, I was thinking if I follow through on my latest, ultra basic, two-week cycle, mentioned in my Week 3 workout report,
of
Deadlift, Rows, Press
alternating with
Squat, Bench, Pulldown
that's doing each exercise three times over two weeks. Maybe the first and third times I could go with my 1/3/5 rep count for the three big lifts, but then the second time
do more of a 1RM>descending sets scheme, like I did yesterday for the bench. Maybe aim 5-10 pounds heavier for the initial single than I do in the 1/3/5 scheme. Could be a nice variation. And that way, I can keep pushing up close to my true 1RM twice a month, staying just 10-20 pounds under, and also push the triples a bit.

So for the deadlift, for example, instead of

3x1x335/3x3x295/2x5x255

I could do:

1x1x345, 1x1x335, 1x1x325/1x3x305, 1x3x295, 1x3x285/2x5x255

Thoughts?
 
Following up on past discussion about pros/cons of different rows: http://www.t-nation.com/training/kroc-row-vs-pendlay-row

This reader comment jibes with my experience:

"I love bent over barbell rows but they kill my elbows, so I often do Pendlay rows with a Swiss bar."

Last Friday I really felt it in my left elbow while doing a P-Row at 185/175. So I think I might wait until my neutral grip barbell arrives before I do them again, and just focus on the dumbbell row, with some cable rows as assistance.

Interesting how the author also views rows as a higher rep exercise, and the reasons he gives. This also jibes with my experience.
 
Yeah after watching those videos I think I might be cheating myself with my range of motion, I probably could pound out a ton more that way. Think I might work in some kroc rows once a week. Although I dont have the 150lb. weights according to that guy.

I did P-rows last week with an overhand and underhand grip and like you neither felt that great. So I am gonna stick with the KB row and do inverted rows on my rings for now. I could really feel the P-rows in my glutes too, I'm not sure if thats related to the same thing I was feeling today during deadlifts or not.
 
Yeah after watching those videos I think I might be cheating myself with my range of motion, I probably could pound out a ton more that way. Think I might work in some kroc rows once a week. Although I dont have the 150lb. weights according to that guy.

I did P-rows last week with an overhand and underhand grip and like you neither felt that great. So I am gonna stick with the KB row and do inverted rows on my rings for now. I could really feel the P-rows in my glutes too, I'm not sure if thats related to the same thing I was feeling today during deadlifts or not.
I think the author claims that the barbell row is a good assistance exercise for deadlifts, so it would make sense if you felt some interference or effect. Maybe barbell rows, if treated as an assistance lift, are best at lower weights/higher reps, focusing more on explosiveness. Then use the db/kb rows more for building strength? The heavier barbell row does work the lower back well, but I can get that from my hyperextensions, along with simply doing deadlifts and squats, as the author points out I think.

I do like the idea of having just one type of row be primary, so that now I have just six primary lifts to base everything else on:

Workout A
BB Deadlift
DB Row
Seated BB OH Press

Workout B
BB Lo-bar Squat
BB Bench Press
Neutral-grip Cable Pulldown
 
If I had adjustable DB's I would probably just focus on those as well. It's the equivalent of benching in my opinion. Yeah lower back work is like calf work, not really necessary and it gets hit with almost everything else we do in the gym.
 
Yeah after watching those videos I think I might be cheating myself with my range of motion, I probably could pound out a ton more that way.
Getting back to this observation, I think maybe I accommodate this with a varied rep scheme. My triples have a shorter ROM, but with the five-rep sets, I get the db closer to my torso. Those guys are doing really high reps though, with limited ROM. Something to consider . . .

Adjustable DBs are a drag, because you have to get all these small plates that are otherwise useless. Or go Sid's route, with the power blocks, which requires a big initial investment but is very convenient.

Now I'm thinking of taking up your suggestion of making every last five-rep set a 5+ set--do as much as possible past five for a little hypertrophy and a bigger pump.

P.S., I just found out what the name for my 1/3/5 rep scheme is, it's called a contrast series: http://www.t-nation.com/training/6-ways-to-keep-getting-stronger
 
Getting back to this observation, I think maybe I accommodate this with a varied rep scheme. My triples have a shorter ROM, but with the five-rep sets, I get the db closer to my torso. Those guys are doing really high reps though, with limited ROM. Something to consider . . .

Adjustable DBs are a drag, because you have to get all these small plates that are otherwise useless. Or go Sid's route, with the power blocks, which requires a big initial investment but is very convenient.

Now I'm thinking of taking up your suggestion of making every last five-rep set a 5+ set--do as much as possible past five for a little hypertrophy and a bigger pump.

P.S., I just found out what the name for my 1/3/5 rep scheme is, it's called a contrast series: http://www.t-nation.com/training/6-ways-to-keep-getting-stronger

Yeah I'll skip the weighted dbs, I would only use them for rows and I could probably build a swing bar that had a handle like a KB then I could use them for swings and DB rows.

D-Handle-Kettlebell-277x300.jpg


That article has a few interesting ideas. I might give this one a try.

The method I prefer when using this strategy is to do the target lift first and last in the session. You do it first because that's when the nervous system is fresher and when you'll be able to send the strongest neural drive to the muscles. As such, go heavier in the beginning than at the end of the workout. When training for strength, start the session by ramping to a 2 or 3RM in 4-5 sets.
Repeat the movement at the end of your workout because the thing you do last in your session will tend to have the greatest neural adaptation. By doing your focus lift both at the beginning and at the end of your workout you'll gain strength at the highest possible rate. If, for example, you ramped up to a 2 or 3RM at the beginning of your session, you should perform 3 to 4 sets of 3 to 5 reps at the end of your workout using 80% of the 2 or 3RM achieved earlier.

The 5+ comes straight out of Wendlers 531, its actually + on any of the max rep sets. Its an interesting idea, but I have always skipped it because of the hypertrophy. Now that I think of it the boring but big plan is also similar to what you are doing just more reps but at a lower percent of max. Its the normal 531 program for the 4 big lifts but then you do 5 x 10 of the same lift at 50-75% of your training max.

That contrast series seems a bit more complicated but definitely along the same line as yours. I might call yours scalable drop sets.
 
Yeah I'll skip the weighted dbs, I would only use them for rows and I could probably build a swing bar that had a handle like a KB then I could use them for swings and DB rows.

D-Handle-Kettlebell-277x300.jpg


That article has a few interesting ideas. I might give this one a try.

The method I prefer when using this strategy is to do the target lift first and last in the session. You do it first because that's when the nervous system is fresher and when you'll be able to send the strongest neural drive to the muscles. As such, go heavier in the beginning than at the end of the workout. When training for strength, start the session by ramping to a 2 or 3RM in 4-5 sets.
Repeat the movement at the end of your workout because the thing you do last in your session will tend to have the greatest neural adaptation. By doing your focus lift both at the beginning and at the end of your workout you'll gain strength at the highest possible rate. If, for example, you ramped up to a 2 or 3RM at the beginning of your session, you should perform 3 to 4 sets of 3 to 5 reps at the end of your workout using 80% of the 2 or 3RM achieved earlier.

The 5+ comes straight out of Wendlers 531, its actually + on any of the max rep sets. Its an interesting idea, but I have always skipped it because of the hypertrophy. Now that I think of it the boring but big plan is also similar to what you are doing just more reps but at a lower percent of max. Its the normal 531 program for the 4 big lifts but then you do 5 x 10 of the same lift at 50-75% of your training max.

That contrast series seems a bit more complicated but definitely along the same line as yours. I might call yours scalable drop sets.
Yeah, especially with a more limited ROM like the Kroc Rows, you could get by with a DYI handle I think.

I was also intrigued by that idea for my squats, which is the weakest of my big lifts. Maybe finish with front squats, since the quads may be my limiting factor right now. I could do them high rep/low weight:

Low-Bar Squats
Bench Press
Pulldowns
Optional Assistance
Front Squats.

Seems like it would work especially well for your EMOM Deadlifts, and then do some longer, lighter sets at the end.

Yeah, I just don't like high reps, but if I was doing the last five-rep set of my deadlifts, say, and really feeling it, I could probably add in 2-5 more reps.

Yeah, the contrast series is more complicated, and I don't see the point of a complicated protocol for intermediate lifters like us, but I do like the idea of varying bar speeds. That's where the contrast is, but you're right, 'scalable drop-sets' is more descriptively adequate. I like that.
 
As far as stretching, I was thinking about this dvd.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1935045105

Rountree has several short videos online.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUI7jqgd9rYaGdqEfFV_GLRNpAXdjz3cj
Had a chance to try out the Dvd, The Athlete's Guide to Yoga. Has some nice stretches for running and swimming.

I got on a nice rhythm with alternating running and swimming, and was doing fine without stretching. Until I got back into strength training, I didn't really need to stretch.

My strength training is doing squats or dead in the afternoon on a running day, twice a week. Then four days a week doing either bench/row or pulldown/press.

My lawn guy disappeared, just stopped showing up. Things never stop growing in Florida, so I've added a "yard day" workout, and alternating swimming and running on the other days. I don't particularly enjoy the yard work, but now that I'm in shape, it's not too bad. I don't like the idea of paying someone hundreds of dollars a year to "exercise" for me.
 
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I haven't gotten any of the Parisi dvds, but I came across this review.

Parisi Strength Training for Speed
http://articles.elitefts.com/traini...arisi-strength-training-for-speed-dvd-review/

"The first DVD goes over the principles of strength training, all of which everyone should know and internalize.

principle of consistency
principle of understanding
principle of resiliency
principle of foundation
principle of restoration
principle of preparation
principle of individualization
principle of progressive overload
principle of variety

All of these principles are discussed thoroughly by Martin, who gives examples and explains why they are so important. Throughout this segment, Martin actually trains! So while he explains them, he is doing things such as box squats, weighted pull-ups, and glute ham raises.

Next, Martin goes over the acute variables of training:

exercise selection
exercise order
repetitions
sets
tempo
rest
frequency

One of the most important things that I learned from all of this is that Martin describes the principles of strength training as a “macro-level of training” and the acute variables of training as the “micro-level of training.” Now where do most of us spend 99 percent of our time? That’s right—in the micro level! Some food for thought: the next time you debate over six or eight reps, remember what is truly important."
 
Had a chance to try out the Dvd, The Athlete's Guide to Yoga. Has some nice stretches for running and swimming.

I got on a nice rhythm with alternating running and swimming, and was doing fine without stretching. Until I got back into strength training, I didn't really need to stretch.

My strength training is doing squats or dead in the afternoon on a running day, twice a week. Then four days a week doing either bench/row or pulldown/press.

My lawn guy disappeared, just stopped showing up. Things never stop growing in Florida, so I've added a "yard day" workout, and alternating swimming and running on the other days. I don't particularly enjoy the yard work, but now that I'm in shape, it's not too bad. I don't like the idea of paying someone hundreds of dollars a year to "exercise" for me.
Sounds like you're in a good spot Sid. Alternating swimming and running and doing st splits is a great way to go. I don't really mind yardwork either, it's just that there's so many other things I'd like to do, mainly play with my kids. But my son is starting to get to an age where doing yardwork is a form of play for him. It's just not very efficient. Our yard looks terrible next to our next-door neighbor's, but luckily some of our other neighbors are also slackers.

It's funny, when I was regaining some running fitness summer, my massaging and stretching was pretty minimal, and I put it down to the extra emphasis on lower body st. I just didn't feel much tightness post-run. Then I started getting this sore knee, and massaging and stretching is taking care of it. So, for me, this has re-emphasized the need for preventive massaging and stretching, whether or not I feel tight, and the benefit of being generally limber all the time. I've also been amazed at how much mobility/stretching and massage has helped my shoulder issue. I'm also a little mad at myself for taking so long to recognize this as a possible solution.

So I'm not saying everyone should stretch and massage, and in my younger days I didn't need to that much, but I've come to recognize it as a necessity now.

As for that Parisi stuff, looks like old wine in a new bottle, but I'd be interested in hearing your take on it if you decide to buy the dvd. My basic take these days is that pretty much everything is already known. You just have to find a routine or program that fits your sensibility. I'm trying to keep things simple, and there's nothing simpler than going heavy--it limits what you can do, in terms of sets, reps, exercise selection, frequency, exercises order, etc. That is, any exercise I can't do reasonably heavy is out, and I have to do the heaviest exercises first, and yet I can't do too many heavy exercises in the same workout, and so on and so forth as the logic plays out.
 
Parisi has been around since 1992, so it actually may be old wine in an old bottle. :D
Sometimes, I think that all of the new fads are just adding more confusion, when they hype a new product or method. The signal to noise ratio worsens, and people try all sorts of gimmicks instead of tried and true methods.

Their exercises seem very sport specific and geared towards young athletes in their prime. They seem beyond me, an old man past his prime. I don't need to focus on explosive moments, because there's no telling what will rattle loose!