LONG Story- Plantar Fasciitis problem?

Should I...

  • stick with as minimalist as possible

    Votes: 4 100.0%
  • get something with more arch stability

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • go minimalist with more support (stack height)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • go minimalist with a little more drop

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    4

Krieger

Barefooters
Apr 18, 2014
15
4
3
34
Let me apologize for the length here- just trying to get accurate information. Please skip to the bottom for a short summary if you do not wish to read. :)

So here is my story- I have been running for a long time as a result of being a Marine- however I was always bigger into lifting than running. Back in 2011 I had been reading and hearing a lot about Vibram Five Fingers and "barefoot" shoes in general. In the summer of 2011 I went to a running store that videotape me on a treadmill, showed me that I over-pronated (more with my right foot) and gave me some Brooks GTS shoes with some decent arch support (I am flat footed). I ran in these with relatively no issues, in fact I never really had issues when running before at all. I trained in them, and ran my first Tough Mudder in October of 2011 and had no problems again. I bought a pair of Vibrams around this time but decided to hold off on running in them until after Tough Mudder.

In hindsight, part of me wishes I hadn't changed to Vibram's as I have heard a LOT of folks say that if you don't have problems or injuries running in normal shoes, there is no need to switch to minimalist. However I took the plunge, and now I am committed to stay with them. I started (SLOWLY) training in my Vibram's after Tough Mudder, to prepare for my 3 mile PFT run in April. A week before my PFT I took one 3 mile run in my old Brooks GTS shoes just to see if they felt better before my PFT. When I got home my knees hurt so bad- it was more of a soreness than pain, but it was definitely NOT the shoe I was going to run the PFT in. Interestingly enough I had no issues with the Vibrams throughout this time, and ended up running my fastest PFT ever- whether it was the training or the shoes is up for grabs. I continued to run and train in my Vibram's for the next few years, running multiple 5k's, and 10-13 miles Spartan Races and Tough Mudders in them with zero issues. However, when training for those races I never ran more than 5 miles at a time. I focused on the lifting, and ran every other day typically 3 miles, sometimes up to 5 on a day that I felt like it- always on pavement/concrete sidewalks.

Last year was when I really started to understand that changing shoes wasn't the only thing to going minimalist. I started studying form- excessively- and still do. I bought a pair of Vivobarefoot shoes that I could wear everyday instead of the huge clunky boots I used to wear all the time, and occasionally ran in them instead of my Vibrams. I have learned that even today I must constantly re-evaluate my form throughout my runs. I started having back issues in 2012-2013 that I believe are totally unrelated to running- but I started seeing a NUCCA chiropractor, who confirmed that I had an imbalance- I always thought I had a leg length issue. 8 months later I am balanced out on both legs, even weight distribution and no back pain. I never stopped running during this time because it only hurt to sit down, standing/running was fine. He is a fan of the minimalist shoes- so even though I was debating going back I decided to stick with them.

This year I decided to go all out and get serious about my running. I am signed up for a number of road races, a marathon at the end of the year, obstacle races, a couple half marathons, etc. I am following a marathon training plan that obviously has me working up to a ton of mileage- currently at about 20 a week- on pavement/sidewalks. I am learning that my minimalist shoes feel WAY better on 10 miles grass/trails than they do on 10 miles of pavement.


Current issue: I ran a PR 13 mile Spartan Beast and ended up i think 6th in my age group back in late October of 2013, but ran the entire race with a weird ankle injury that had been lingering since August- and decided to take most of the winter off of running and get back to lifting. I still ran occasionally, but the break seemed to help because my ankle is fine now after nagging me for months. I slipped on the Vibrams in February, and started my marathon training. I started out just doing 1.5 mile runs for a week to make sure nothing felt wrong, worked my way back up to three in a week or two, then up to 5, and then started doing long runs (8+ miles) about a month and some change after getting back to the Vibrams. I am realizing that because I took so much time off for the winter, I may be a victim of "too much too soon" and perhaps should have started slower- unfortunately my first two races were in April and May. I started using my Vivobarefoot shoes with the insole for a little extra padding for anything over 3 miles to try to avoid some injuries.

The problem I am/was having: The biggest thing that worried me was what I thought for SURE was plantar fasciitis. However, I'm not sure now but don't want to aggravate it if I can stop it now. I hear it is harder to heal the longer it lingers- if that is what it is. I have zero pain when running, thought my feet do get a little "tired" after 5 or so miles. I also very occasionally had pain starting out on my runs but generally only after 3 or 4 days of running a good amount in a row, and it goes away quickly after I start- and is gone after my first rest day. Because the pain is rarely- if ever in my heel- I think this may be more of an arch problem- that they are either getting stronger, or just not strong enough for the distance I am doing.

I wake up with a feeling in my feet that I think is best described as "pins and needles"- but it is not painful, and it is kind of all over the bottom of my feet, but not in the heel. It goes away after a few steps- which is one of the reasons I was thinking it was PF. They mostly just feel "tight" and that I need to get them loose. I have been following treatment for PF (stretching calves and achilles throughout the day, foam rolling, standing/rolling feet on a frozen golf ball, pulling toes towards shins before getting out of bed in the morning) and all of that seems to help that pins and needles feeling in the morning, and relieve some of that tightness. The other issue that cropped up this month- I ran an 11.03 mile road race last weekend. The week before I went for a short 3 mile run in my Vibrams, and when I finished my right arch (the foot I apparently overpronate more than the other), between the heel and the big toe- felt incredibly tight. It almost felt like a charlie horse in my arch, that I could not stretch out. I walked around for a bit and it went away, but it freaked me out. I decided not to run my race in Vibrams, and opted for the Vivobarefoot shoes with the insoles put in. As an added note the top of my first metatarsal on my right foot has been sore, which is why I am thinking I need more padding or I am landing too hard- but maybe I am still overpronating that foot?

I ran a good time, 1:27:00 even and had a pace of around 7:50 which is good for me, my long runs usually are around 8:30-9:00 minutes, and this run had a lot of hills. I noticed around mile 8-9 the balls of my feet were burning a bit. I finished the race, took a few days off and have felt fine. Wednesday I ran 3 miles, and did 4 the next day both in my Vibrams and feel fine today. I can't really let off the gas too much because I have a half marathon May 18th, but I am looking for advice. Does this sound like Plantar Fasciitis? If so, how can I be doing these distances without pain, just the "pins and needles" in the morning? Especially the 11 miler- I feel like I should have been really hurting after that but I felt fantastic- I feel like PF would have ruined me the next morning.

To close out- I have decided that I should probably get something with a bit more padding for now, just to try it out while I get my feet used to these longer road runs. I am also thinking that Vibrams for a marathon in October may not be doable just yet, and maybe I should go with more padding for the marathon. I bought a pair of Altra One's, Instinct 1.5, and Saucony Virrata's last night to figure out if that helps- I don't plan on keeping all of them but I can't try these shoes on without traveling over an hour- thank you Amazon Prime. Did I go too much in terms of stack height? Will I be going backwards in progress if I start going from 6mm stack height in my Vivobarefoots to 16+mm height for my long runs? Just curious if I should have gone somewhere in between, like 8-12mm total stack to allow myself to better adjust my feet and strengthen them?

I have always heard that flat feet are terrible and flat footed people will have terrible pain with minimalist shoes- until recently where I have read some new studies that go against that claim- by the way my arches are much stronger and not nearly as flat as when i started in minimalist shoes. I was considering going with something that had a 4-8mm drop for my long runs- but I am not sure what that would have helped if anything- so I went with the extra padding. Was this the right choice? I see a pair of Inov8 Road X-Lite 155's on sale today that I am tempted to try, but there is no free return shipping and I don't know that the 3mm drop would be beneficial at all?

Too long, didn't read: Flat footed minimalist runner for 3 years with no issues at short distance, occasional long trail runs, took the winter off and got back up to about 15-20 miles a week within a month. Pins and needles feeling in the morning- is it PF? Should I stick with Vibrams for marathon/long runs since my marathon isn't until October and I have time, or should I use more padding/arch support/more drop for those? I basically don't know if the feelings are my feet getting stronger, or telling me to slow down/add support. And if it is support do I go stability/arch support, zero drop with more padding, or a normal shoe with a low-ish drop? ANY advice is appreciated!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sid
Welcome, Krieger. Please feel free to ask our Docs in the Ask the Docs forum too. Check out their bios posted at the top of that forum for more info about them.
 
why are you signed up for a mary? what are your goals? to run a race or just run? if it's just run then give up on racing until you know you can cover the distance. shoes won't help you run the race. a stronger you will. cushion doesn't make the problem go away, it just dampens the noise until it hits hard.

the problem sounds like it could be a slight pf. nip it before it grows. there are a few vids posted here from the gait guys that could help you with that. i'm not savy enough to post the links.

if i were you. i would sell the mary bib and focus on building for the half. when you succesfully complete that or a few without problems then think about the mary. i myself run bf and believe it the best way to go. i'm very conservative with my running. i've pushed too far many times and always back off after because not running sucks more than not running a race.

hope you sort it out.
 
Welcome to BRS! Great work on all the progress that you've made! Minimalist running is exceedingly unforgiving of any foot and technique problems, and barefoot running even more so.

After spending over $1000 trying to find the perfect shoe, I've decided that one doesn't exist for me. I run barefoot as well and have learned to be patient. Transitioning has taken me four years, and I have found it well worth the time and effort. My bunions and foremost varus have improved, and my feet are a lot more functional. It's also helped me to have another activity while transitoning, such as swimming, so I'm not too impatient with the running.

I can appreciate that you have goals, and want to achieve them. Why race at all, until all of your problems have been resolved, or is there a large winner's purse at stake? For me, having functional feet has been an amazing achievement already. Now, I'm ready to work more on time and distance!

Welcome and good luck!
 
migangelo-

I signed up for the marathon because logically it seemed like the next step. I have done everything in between, just not the full 26.2. I wanted a goal to focus on at the end of the year to keep me running throughout the spring/summer. I know I can cover the distance, I could probably run 26.2 today- I just wouldn't be doing much running for a while after that and my time would probably be awful :/.

Your point about extra cushion makes sense. My feet might feel a little better but the impact will be the same. I think the tingling in my right foot may potentially be Morton's Neuroma after a little research- but I am not really sure what causes that or how to resolve it. It doesn't seem to do it in the Vibram's though, but almost every time I run in the Vivobarefoot shoes it starts to tingle around mile 4.

I don't think I will sell the marathon bib. I have until the last Sunday in October to get up to that distance, and barring any significant setbacks I know I can get there. I can sell it up until September so there is plenty of time to figure that out. The half marathon is only a month away, but I ran the 11 miler last week with no issues at a 7:46 pace, so I am sure I can do 13 with an extra month to get there. I also have a couple 10 milers and another half between now and the marathon- of course some of those are trail runs which I seem to have an easier time with (as far as my feet). Thanks for the advice!!


Sid-
Thankfully I have never had issues with bunions or any of those problems that ail a lot of people seeking help from minimalist running. I was hoping to beat those ailments to the punch :). I recently bought a bike to keep up with something on cross-training days or days my feet don't want to go for a run.

There is no winner's purse at stake. I signed up for the marathon at the end of the year and signed up for little races in between to make sure I don't slow down too much. They keep me motivated, and I like the feeling of accomplishment after a race. The issue is that none of these problems existed last year when I signed up for these races, at least not in the capacity I have them now- but I can think of nothing that I have changed, except that I run on pavement more for my long distance runs. I don't feel like anything has gotten worse despite my mileage increase, but they are lingering and I don't want them to turn into something worse if I can fix them now.

I think a big issue for me is that it is very difficult for me to get the form just right. I have watched countless videos and read a ton of articles and a few books but some of them seem to contradict each other rather significantly. I feel like I really need to attend a minimalist "clinic" and have someone who knows what they are looking for check me out, but there are none of those nearby, sadly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sid
However I took the plunge, and now I am committed to stay with them.
I admire your tenacity. A lot of us here have persevered through various problems and resolved them with time. Hopefully, you will too!
I was hoping to beat those ailments to the punch
I hate to be a killjoy, but might I point out a few of the concerns that you've mentioned?
over-pronated
back issues
imbalance
hurt to sit down
weird ankle injury
plantar fasciitis
my feet do get a little "tired"
occasionally had pain starting out on my runs
pain is rarely- if ever in my heel-
more of an arch problem
feet "pins and needles" all over the bottom of my feet, feel "tight"
right arch felt incredibly tight
top of my first metatarsal on my right foot has been sore
balls of my feet were burning
Morton's Neuroma
I feel like I really need to attend a minimalist "clinic" and have someone who knows what they are looking for check me out, but there are none of those nearby, sadly.
That sounds like a really good idea. Even better, might be to see a local gait specialist. I've enjoyed The Gait Guys blog which focuses on rehabilitation. If you don't live near one of them, then perhaps they'd be able to recommend a local colleague, if you contact them? Good luck!
doctorallen.co
www.summitchiroandrehab.com
 
  • Like
Reactions: Krieger
If you do turn out to have MN, get a couple of doctor's opinions and at least an ultrasound and MR Neurography (MRI is unreliable) before deciding on any treatments or surgeries, then come visit us at MN Talk...see my signature. Best to you!
 
"I am learning that my minimalist shoes feel WAY better on 10 miles grass/trails than they do on 10 miles of pavement."

Hmmmmm. That says something about form to me. While I think you should vary your terrain on trails or with hills, pavement shouldn't feel bad in general.
Have you tried full barefoot running on pavement? Learning new form is most quickly and easily helped by the feedback you get from skin to ground, especially when transitioning from "traditional" running shoes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sid
I think a big issue for me is that it is very difficult for me to get the form just right. I have watched countless videos and read a ton of articles and a few books but some of them seem to contradict each other rather significantly.
You've hit upon a really good point. The right form for one person, may not the right for another. http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/index.php?posts/150370

One doesn't learn how to perfect their golf swing by watching videos of professionals. Even the pros need to change their swing as their bodies change over the years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: scedastic
"I am learning that my minimalist shoes feel WAY better on 10 miles grass/trails than they do on 10 miles of pavement."

That says something about form to me.
I had very similar experience during my second year of transitioning, when I developed proficiency running barefoot on trails, and even asphalt, but not on concrete sidewalks.

In retrospect, it was due to my foot problems, which took my third and fourth years of transitioning to fix. So, in my case it was due to poor form as a result of my poor feet. Going slowly and conditioning didn't help, because my foot problems were still there, despite logging 800 miles barefoot (trails + asphalt).

Running barefoot on concrete really highlighted my problems, and forced me to change. Even then, it still took me a while to figure out my problems. I'm glad that I took my time, because injuries seem to come to those who rush too fast.

That said, running barefoot and even minshoes aren't for everyone, but it's worth the trouble and a lot of fun for many of us here at BRS!
 
  • Like
Reactions: scedastic
I had very similar experience during my second year of transitioning, when I developed proficiency running barefoot on trails, and even asphalt, but not on concrete sidewalks.

In retrospect, it was due to my foot problems, which took my third and fourth years of transitioning to fix. So, in my case it was due to poor form as a result of my poor feet. Going slowly and conditioning didn't help, because my foot problems were still there, despite logging 800 miles barefoot (trails + asphalt).

Running barefoot on concrete really highlighted my problems, and forced me to change. Even then, it still took me a while to figure out my problems. I'm glad that I took my time, because injuries seem to come to those who rush too fast.

That said, running barefoot and even minshoes aren't for everyone, but it's worth the trouble and a lot of fun for many of us here at BRS!


Good points.
Perhaps I should have said it's worth a try without shoes at all, but it's not the answer to everything.
 
Kreiger,

if you're seeking advice. dial it down until you figure out what's causing the pain. be it form or functional. then ramp it back up. don't worry about racing til then. make running painless would be a good goal to have. it keeps me motivated. yes, i realize you're not me that's why i asked what your goals are. hope you figure it out and don't hurt yourself. it's not worth it.
 
I hate to be a killjoy, but might I point out a few of the concerns that you've mentioned?
Touché! I guess I have bigger problems than bunions :(

Thanks TJ! Looks like there is one about 1.5 hours away. I will have to consider paying him a visit!

Have you tried full barefoot running on pavement?
I have tried a few times. My feet just won't seem to man up. I can't make it very far before they start to hurt- the skin that is, just from the pavement. I know that this take a lot of time to build up to, mine just never seem to thicken up.

In retrospect, it was due to my foot problems, which took my third and fourth years of transitioning to fix. So, in my case it was due to poor form as a result of my poor feet.

Do you mind if I ask what issues you were having or how you resolved them?

dial it down until you figure out what's causing the pain. be it form or functional. then ramp it back up.

I'm just at a loss for what could be causing the issues. I feel like I am over-analyzing things since they haven't gotten worse and they aren't "painful" as they are annoying, they are just nagging things that I notice when I run. Like my race last week for example, I ran with someone the entire 11 miles and never noticed anything hurting- though I was talking and pre-occupied with the conversation for most of the run. I think that when I get into my longer runs, I really start to think about every little thing and am possibly even over-analyzing my form. I just don't know. I will check out the resources everyone has posted- and I appreciate all of the good advice! I will also have a conversation with the chiro next week to see if he can do anything on his end to help :)
 
This is a great thread. Lots of good advice and support here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sid
I know that this take a lot of time to build up to, mine just never seem to thicken up.
Took me about 6 months to be fairly tolerable, 4 years to become quite comfortable.
Do you mind if I ask what issues you were having or how you resolved them?
I compiled some of the information that I found helpful in this post.
http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/index.php?posts/148864
I feel like I am over-analyzing things since they haven't gotten worse and they aren't "painful" as they are annoying, they are just nagging things that I notice when I run.
In the beginning, I could tell that my feet were significantly different from each other. I had no idea which foot was "good" or "bad". I knew that I had problems, and I was hoping that the process of transitioning and adaptation would sort it all out. I finally figured out my problems, but it took me four years! I would have gone to a gait specialist for rehab had I known they existed, but I was under the impression that docs either sold orthotics or did surgery. But hey it all worked out for me. Hopefully, your recovery will be quicker!
 
  • Like
Reactions: NickW
I compiled some of the information that I found helpful in this post.
http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/index.php?posts/148864
In the beginning, I could tell that my feet were significantly different from each other. I had no idea which foot was "good" or "bad". I knew that I had problems, and I was hoping that the process of transitioning and adaptation would sort it all out. I finally figured out my problems, but it took me four years! I would have gone to a gait specialist for rehab had I known they existed, but I was under the impression that docs either sold orthotics or did surgery. But hey it all worked out for me. Hopefully, your recovery will be quicker!

Thank you for the link to your post! I think my situation is similar- I know that I am doing something different with my feet, but I have no clue what, or which one is "right". Like you I was hoping these would go away on their own. I am glad it worked out for you! I plan to make an appointment with one of the specialists in Arlington to see what they think, and hopefully get a handle on this before it gets too bad.

I have been keeping the mileage under 5 miles this week, and haven't had too many issues. Today I did 3.5 at a pretty slow pace but felt fine the whole time. Maybe I just need to slow things down and focus a little. Thanks for the helpful advice! I will let you guys know how the recovery/progress goes!
 
  • Like
Reactions: migangelo and Sid
So I think I may have had somewhat of a "breakthrough" in my form yesterday. Since my 11 mile race I have been taking it easy, keeping things below 5 miles while I try to re-evaluate what I am doing wrong. I have been all over The Gait Guys articles and videos/podcasts, and YouTube and other forums/websites for tips and exercises- and reading Sid's links above. I took a day off on Wednesday and decided to go for a long run yesterday. I was only planning on doing 5 minimum, but wanted to get to 6. I did 7 and felt fantastic during, and after my run! And my feet didn't really have any pins and needles this morning!

On Tuesday I found a few videos on YouTube that were a little different to me:
--the biggest difference being the cadence, at 190 instead of the 180 that Lee Saxby preaches. I kept it at 180 for the run since that is what I am used to. However, what really struck me was when she says to only "lift your feet off the ground as much as is needed" to move forward, and that anything more is excess and wastes precious energy.

Starting out felt strange- it almost felt like I was shuffling or power walking with a slightly longer stride. My calves were a little tighter than normal but my feet felt amazing. I was landing MUCH softer overall. By mile 7 I definitely felt like I could have kept going, but my left calf was pretty tight- I think this was due to deadlifting the night before however. My left glute was much more sore than the right when I started the run, and I think that led to the calf being tired sooner than the other. I also had no issues with arch tightness or tingling in my right foot that usually comes at mile 3 or 4. My pace was a little slower than usual, around 15-20 seconds slower, but I think that if I keep doing it this way I can easily bring that down. I was in no hurry for this run either.

I know it is only 2 runs but I am pretty excited! What do you guys think? Is the video showing good form? Is the idea of only lifting as high as you need to to move forward sound advice? The only issue I noticed that I may have to look into is that my knees felt tired when I stopped. They did not hurt at all during the run, but as soon as I stopped and transitioned to walking, they felt incredibly tight for about 10-20 steps. I don't want to cause myself knee issues, so I don't know if they felt like that because the form was different for me, or because I am doing something else wrong. I think I may have been almost locking them with each step because I was so focused on not lifting them too high. Any thoughts?
 

Support Your Club

Natural Running Center

Forum statistics

Threads
19,158
Messages
183,626
Members
8,702
Latest member
wleffert-test