Optimal strength training for runners

Yeah that's low you should try to lift them off the ground some so you start around 12"? I bet you that low your knees are pretty far ahead of your toes which can cause some knee pain. One other option would be to really push your butt back and keep the knee bend to a minimum.
I guess I'll start by putting the handles upside up! And also try some of your ideas. Still hoping it was a nonce experience though. Didn't feel anything on my 14" box jumps this morning.

Hey looked a bit more at the Dan John blog. Some good stuff in there--will have to look at it some more with tomorrow morning's espresso. Like Jason, he recommends sprinting and plyo, which is where I've been heading lately. I also try to get in a little tempo pace somewhere in a mezzo run. I'm off for some front/back st now, and then 2-3 miles of sprints on my way to picking up the kids.
 
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Yeah I have been trying to sprint more, actually I've pretty much cut out any easy short runs during the week and now I just sprint or run stairs. Just trying to mix it up a little and not feel so beat down with slow running. I've been enjoying my mountain bike more too. Periodization!

He does have a lot of good info, specifically about setting long term goals. Although I sometimes find his writing to be scattered.
 
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Yeah I have been trying to sprint more, actually I've pretty much cut out any easy short runs during the week and now I just sprint or run stairs. Just trying to mix it up a little and not feel so beat down with slow running. I've been enjoying my mountain bike more too. Periodization!

He does have a lot of good info, specifically about setting long term goals. Although I sometimes find his writing to be scattered.
Yah, the writing isn't that good, but it's nice to hear about st from a guy who's been around a long time. Reading through some of his stuff has mostly renewed the emphasis on a point you made a while ago about focusing on heavy lifts. In particular, I'm glad you talked me into getting serious about squats again. I think those, deadlifts, and now some of the plyo stuff I've initiated will really help my running, along with the sprints. The weekend long run is still the centerpiece of my running week, but to get my aerobic pace down in the 8-9mm range, I'm still experimenting with different kinds of runs during the week, anywhere from another longish run, tempo pace farteks, sprints, hills, and shorter aerobic runs. I also do lots of one-mile run-commutes. Trying to get those up to tempo pace on a consistent pace, which has been made easier now that it's pretty damn cold out.

One thing for sure, I like sprints a lot more than hill repeats, although I get good benefit from the later. Hills will also be a good winter option for me, as there's a big hill close by where the snow melts fairly quickly. So that could become one of my weekly run workouts once the weather turns nasty. I guess for me, more than periodization, it's just constant experimentation within certain parameters. I really don't get the whole x sets of y reps at z weight approach that all these st sites recommend. Or the weekly mileage standards and training protocols. If I do sprints, for example, my mileage will be lower, but the benefit might be greater, than another one-hour run at a medium to slow pace, right? With any set plan, you're ignoring the most important information of all, and that's your body's feedback. I kind of enjoy constantly tweaking my daily or weekly plan based on how I'm responding. For a while it seemed to make sense to push distance, now I want to push pace again. It's periodization, but like you, I tend to do it by feel, not theory.

Hey, one question (for Abide or anyone else): do you have any experience with front squats?
 
Yah, the writing isn't that good, but it's nice to hear about st from a guy who's been around a long time. Reading through some of his stuff has mostly renewed the emphasis on a point you made a while ago about focusing on heavy lifts. In particular, I'm glad you talked me into getting serious about squats again. I think those, deadlifts, and now some of the plyo stuff I've initiated will really help my running, along with the sprints. The weekend long run is still the centerpiece of my running week, but to get my aerobic pace down in the 8-9mm range, I'm still experimenting with different kinds of runs during the week, anywhere from another longish run, tempo pace farteks, sprints, hills, and shorter aerobic runs. I also do lots of one-mile run-commutes. Trying to get those up to tempo pace on a consistent pace, which has been made easier now that it's pretty damn cold out.

One thing for sure, I like sprints a lot more than hill repeats, although I get good benefit from the later. Hills will also be a good winter option for me, as there's a big hill close by where the snow melts fairly quickly. So that could become one of my weekly run workouts once the weather turns nasty. I guess for me, more than periodization, it's just constant experimentation within certain parameters. I really don't get the whole x sets of y reps at z weight approach that all these st sites recommend. Or the weekly mileage standards and training protocols. If I do sprints, for example, my mileage will be lower, but the benefit might be greater, than another one-hour run at a medium to slow pace, right? With any set plan, you're ignoring the most important information of all, and that's your body's feedback. I kind of enjoy constantly tweaking my daily or weekly plan based on how I'm responding. For a while it seemed to make sense to push distance, now I want to push pace again. It's periodization, but like you, I tend to do it by feel, not theory.

Hey, one question (for Abide or anyone else): do you have any experience with front squats?

A couple of things that might relate this blog post... http://sharmanian.blogspot.com/2013/11/back-to-back-long-runs.html

Its an interesting concept that differs from the LSD idea like your tempo long runs?

I really like his concept of developing a solid base and then continually challenging yourself throughout the year with different patterning. So I would definitely agree with your run/lift by feel.

A little about front squats, I do them a couple of times a month. I really hate squatting though in general it pisses me off every time I do it.
 
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A couple of things that might relate this blog post... http://sharmanian.blogspot.com/2013/11/back-to-back-long-runs.html

Its an interesting concept that differs from the LSD idea like your tempo long runs?

I really like his concept of developing a solid base and then continually challenging yourself throughout the year with different patterning. So I would definitely agree with your run/lift by feel.

A little about front squats, I do them a couple of times a month. I really hate squatting though in general it pisses me off every time I do it.
Yah, it's a little different, and it's interesting that he mentions Renato Canova. I think I read that his Kenyans train around 35% of the time at lactate threshold/tempo pace. In fact, in my brief foray into reading up on elite endurance running, I didn't find anyone endorsing the strict base-building of Maffetone. The trend seems to be to run fairly fast 20-35 percent of the time, with an attendant reduction in overall training volume.

My intuition has been to get up to my goal distance as quickly as possible, even if it means running more slowly than I would like, and then to gradually convert more and more of that distance into my goal pace. Right now I'm still in the initial phases of stabilizing the goal distance, which is halfmarathonish, something like 12-15 miles. It's getting easier, and recovery is a lot faster, but I'd like it to feel about as easy as a 6-8 mile run does now. Until then, meanwhile, on shorter, middle-distance runs, in the 6-10 mile range, I'm trying to run at least a few miles in the middle, or start, or finish, at tempo pace, which right now is my long-term aerobic goal pace of 8-8:30mm. Once my long distance runs start to feel easy, I'll start adding more sections of tempo pace into them as well. So eventually, my goal distance and goal (aerobic) pace will match up and I'll be able to routinely run half-marathonish distances at 8 to 8:30 mm pace aerobically. A few months ago, before starting the push for distance, I ran aerobically more than five miles, or maybe it was close to five miles, at something like 8:50 mm pace. So I think my goals are attainable.

I don't really consider these to be performance goals, however, because I have no real interest in racing or even PRs. Rather, this is the kind of running that feels best to me. So the goal is basically greater running pleasure, and the distance and pace are arbitrary. It just so happens that running for two hours and at around 8-8:30mm pace feels best, but I can't do both at the same time right now, which is frustrating.

This approach parallels my approach to lifting, in that I tend to reach a one-rep max, and then work around that with pyramiding, or higher reps at lower weight, as well as 'assistance' exercises, until it gets easier and I can do 3-5 reps, which is the equivalent of running at a faster pace, more or less. Then I up the weight again to a new one-rep max, which, to continue the loose analogy, would be like increasing distance while running at a slower pace.

There are a lot of parallels between weight training and running, and another one of them is if you want to run fast, you have to train fast, and if you want to be strong, you have to lift heavy. Another parallel is the need to vary one's training, which we've been discussing, and also to train by feel, that is, use the feedback of your body's adaptations, along with daily/weekly shifts in energy levels, to guide your progress and training choices.

And right now one of the things I'm hearing is to do more squats! I kind of understand your dread though. Those full body exercises really take a lot of will and concentration. With squats and deadlifts, I don't do one-rep maxes for the most part, but try to keep it in the 3-5 rep range so the mental effort isn't so extreme. I asked about front squats because they seem intriguing, but I guess there's more pressure on the knee, and less glute development, so it's not something I need to get to right away. Plus, I've recently added overhead squats, and it'll take a while to get the hang of those, and my split squats still suck, so there's no hurry to add anything.
 
This approach parallels my approach to lifting, in that I tend to reach a one-rep max, and then work around that with pyramiding, or higher reps at lower weight, as well as 'assistance' exercises, until it gets easier and I can do 3-5 reps, which is the equivalent of running at a faster pace, more or less. Then I up the weight again to a new one-rep max, which, to continue the loose analogy, would be like increasing distance while running at a slower pace.
So Lee, I find this specific part very fascinating. Back when I was younger and a fairly fast runner, I ran low miles at a high pace. I built up from that and slowly over time built distance onto that. When I came back to running 3 years ago I got away from that mindset and and wanted to increase distance pretty fast, even if it meant at an insanely frustrating Maf pace that seemed to keep getting slower month to month. Lot's of injuries later I am wondering if that was the right philosophy. The last couple months since I have moved I have worked a lot on speed and have cut down my mileage. Something about it just feels right. My form is starting to feel like when I was younger. I still listen to my body and if I need to take a break and stretch or just catch my breath then I do it, but I feel like I am getting much more fit, and more benefit from my running. Today I had a fast mile of 8:30 and a slow mile of right around 9 min (4 mile run). I think it's good to push yourself, maybe not all the time, but definitely some of the time as you suggest with the Kenyans.
 
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I didn't mean you shouldn't do squats, I think they are a great lift. I just hate doing them and I suck at them. It feels like I never progress either specifically if I am running more. It's the one lift I dread doing and they just suck my motivation. Plus when you deadlifts are over 100lbs higher than your squat it just seems defeating.

But I still do them every day!

My front squat is about 75% of my squat so I tend to stick with the regular thing. I personally prefer deadlifts, trap bar deadlifts and a high bar squats for lower body work. OHS and front squats are cool but not a priority to me.
 
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So Lee, I find this specific part very fascinating. Back when I was younger and a fairly fast runner, I ran low miles at a high pace. I built up from that and slowly over time built distance onto that. When I came back to running 3 years ago I got away from that mindset and and wanted to increase distance pretty fast, even if it meant at an insanely frustrating Maf pace that seemed to keep getting slower month to month. Lot's of injuries later I am wondering if that was the right philosophy. The last couple months since I have moved I have worked a lot on speed and have cut down my mileage. Something about it just feels right. My form is starting to feel like when I was younger. I still listen to my body and if I need to take a break and stretch or just catch my breath then I do it, but I feel like I am getting much more fit, and more benefit from my running. Today I had a fast mile of 8:30 and a slow mile of right around 9 min (4 mile run). I think it's good to push yourself, maybe not all the time, but definitely some of the time as you suggest with the Kenyans.
Yah, we discussed this a bit last year, and I think it still holds true. For a good part of this year, I just ran aerobically because I was rehabbing my various niggles and didn't want to take any chances. Still, I improved, and ran under 9mm pace aerobically in July, as I described above. So just running aerobically will lead to improvement too. It can just be done by feel, and I don't think there's any need to walk hills or anything.

The idea of faster paced runs is to hasten the process of getting faster, and also to then push beyond what would be possible by only running aerobically, to maximize potential. It seems to me that the greater the weekly mileage or training volume, the smaller the percentage of it should be faster runs. So, for example, if you're running just 10 miles a week, you could probably run three times a week at tempo pace each time. But if you're running 100 mpw, then only 20-35 miles should be 'quality' runs. With my weekly mileage goal of 30-40, I think about 6-10 miles of tempo pace and another 2-4 miles of sprints or hills might be enough. I still think there's great value in running long and easy, and I love the sense I get of having a little adventure on those two-hour runs.

Basically, there's three paces, slow/aerobic, medium/tempo/lactate threshold, and fast/intervals/hills/anaerobic, and each runner has to find what ratio works best for them. To continue the lifting analogy, aerobic running is kind of like lifting heavy. It's the base. But then there's higher intensity lifting, and plyometric-type stuff, which is kind of like tempo pace or sprints. You need the variety to push all energy systems and types of muscle activation if you want to attain good, overall conditioning and maximize performance potential.

It sounds like you've been making rapid progress lately, so I would keep doing what you're doing and then, like you say, begin to add distance when you feel yourself plateauing. Maybe begin adding distance to just one run per week. For me, I'm going to hold steady with the way I've been running these last few months, adding tempo little by little. I haven't made any real pace progress since July, but the long runs are getting easier, so I suspect a breakthrough is on the horizon. Just have to be patient and trust the process.

I didn't mean you shouldn't do squats, I think they are a great lift. I just hate doing them and I suck at them. It feels like I never progress either specifically if I am running more. It's the one lift I dread doing and they just suck my motivation. Plus when you deadlifts are over 100lbs higher than your squat it just seems defeating.

But I still do them every day!

My front squat is about 75% of my squat so I tend to stick with the regular thing. I personally prefer deadlifts, trap bar deadlifts and a high bar squats for lower body work. OHS and front squats are cool but not a priority to me.

Yah, I didn't mean to imply that you were implying that we shouldn't do squats. But I think you've just explained why you dread them. You do them everyday! That's setting yourself up for burnout.

Like you though, my deadlifts are a lot better than my squats, about a 100lbs better like yours, and I enjoy them more, but in my case I think it may be because I've always taken the deadlifts more seriously and have been doing them longer. I added deadlifts to my st routine more than 20 years ago, but it was only with your suggestion earlier this year (or was it last year already?) that I've begun to take squats seriously. I can barely do 225, and mostly work between 125 and 175 still, but I'm making good progress lately, now that I have a better feel for the technique, and am doing them more consistently. After another month or two I'm going to have a family friend, a guy my older brother's age who grew up across from our backyard, take a look at my form. He's the co-owner of Zubaz, and owned a bodybuilder/powerlifter gym for many years. I also need to work more on my power clean technique.

Did overhead squats for the second time yesterday. Man, those really hit the lower back. Great variation. My split squats really suck, it's going to take a while to get those up to speed. I didn't get around to trying front squats, maybe next time. I also want to experiment with doing really heavy quarter-squats. I've concluded that half-squats are probably bad for the knees, but quarter squats might be useful for developing power in the hip flexors and glutes.

I hear what you're saying about squats and running. I alternate between lifting and running days, and squats always interfere with my running the next day. I tried to schedule it so that they wouldn't, but it's just impossible, so now I do my squats before a tempo or sprint/hills day, or after sprints/hills or tempo day, as a kind of double or triple whammy on the legs.

Tues: sprints/hills or tempo
Wed: squats & power cleans
Thurs: tempo or sprints/hills
 
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Lee,I don't know anybody (not saying there aren't any) that can squat more then they deadlift.I do strength training once a week,really one rep max training and that day(before laying my lazy ass in the couch in the evening :) ) I do some (2 or 3sets of 15reps) cattlebell swings,clear me right up.Don't feel a thing when running the next day.You might want to try that a couple times see how it goes.
 
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A couple of things that might relate this blog post... http://sharmanian.blogspot.com/2013/11/back-to-back-long-runs.html

Its an interesting concept that differs from the LSD idea like your tempo long runs?

I really like his concept of developing a solid base and then continually challenging yourself throughout the year with different patterning. So I would definitely agree with your run/lift by feel.

A little about front squats, I do them a couple of times a month. I really hate squatting though in general it pisses me off every time I do it.
That last sentence made me smile because most people I know hate working out their legs especially squating.Try doing them lighter for some time and really giving your body the time to adjust to the exercise.Especially front-squats are kind of awkward :) but no doubt you'll be lifting like a champ after some time :).oh and if you're working out alone,get somebody to spot you (helps me) he doesn't have to do anything,just stand there boosts my confidence and makes me lift a whole lot more.
 
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Lee,I don't know anybody (not saying there aren't any) that can squat more then they deadlift.I do strength training once a week,really one rep max training and that day(before laying my lazy ass in the couch in the evening :) ) I do some (2 or 3sets of 15reps) cattlebell swings,clear me right up.Don't feel a thing when running the next day.You might want to try that a couple times see how it goes.
Yah, I've been on the fence with the Kettlebell swings. I use a t-bar, but I'm still not convinced I benefit from them. I do them mainly because everyone else swears by them, and Abide's been a real swinger lately.

For squats and deadlifts, I agree, one should be able to lift more with the latter, but I would think the differential would be a little closer. I can lift 325 max deadlift, but only 225 max squat, and my comfortable 3-5 rep range is 275 and 175 respectively. I'll be happy when my squat is 50lbs closer to my deadlift. Should be possible in 6-12 months, as I'm making faster progress on the squats than on the deadlifts, for reasons given above. (sorry for using pounds)
 
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that's fine,weights here have pounds on them too(in the gym I mean),probably because a lot of them are manifactured in the states.
I've been reading that timothy feriss book,the four hour body...I can mail it to you as a pdf file if you want.It has some really good weight/strength training chapters in it.And in general some really groundbreaking stuff in regard to our bodies and sports (ultrarunning,stabilizinng exercises) and nutrition in general.
 
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that's fine,weights here have pounds on them too(in the gym I mean),probably because a lot of them are manifactured in the states.
I've been reading that timothy feriss book,the four hour body...I can mail it to you as a pdf file if you want.It has some really good weight/strength training chapters in it.And in general some really groundbreaking stuff in regard to our bodies and sports (ultrarunning,stabilizinng exercises) and nutrition in general.
I dunno, sounds pretty gimmicky and faddish. I generally don't go for those 'magic pill' type of programs. How have you benefited from it in your training? My basic premise is that there's no substitute for hard work. It's always going to take x number of miles at x pace to improve, or x number of pounds at x number of reps. The only real variables are organization and efficiency (how you combine and order your exercises and runs, their intensities and durations, etc). But four hours per month? I can't see how anyone can be that organized and efficient, otherwise, every pro athlete would be following his model.
 
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Yah, I didn't mean to imply that you were implying that we shouldn't do squats. But I think you've just explained why you dread them. You do them everyday! That's setting yourself up for burnout.

I guess I should clarify and maybe expand on the even easier strength thing I am doing. I think the primary focus Dan John had when he developed this workout was simply to get someone to stick with the same program and lifts for 40 days. Every day its the same lift for at least two weeks or 10 days, or you can stick with the same ones the whole program. And every day is by feel no percentages or specific weights, technically it should all be easy and if things are going well you push it but it should still feel like it goes up easy, if not you just get the movements in at a low weight.

I hoping the benefit from the 40 days will be similar to benefits the Maf heads claim they get from LHR. You basically build a solid base while developing good form by frequently performing the same lift but at a relatively low intensity. It would be like lifting at RPE level of 6-7 on the chart below.

Rating
Definition
10
Lifting to concentric failure under the conditions of an extreme level of physiological excitement (usually only possible during a competition setting). The last rep will probably move very slowly and take up to 5 seconds.
9
Pushing to concentric failure where the last rep duration is much longer than other reps and form may degrade slightly.
8
Pushing to just short of concentric failure. The last rep may slow just a little but form should remain similar from the first rep to the last. If pushing to failure you would be able to do 1 or possibly 2 more repetitions.
7
Leaving 2-3 reps in reserve after completing the final rep. The last rep is still easy and is not very taxing.
6
More of a recovery training level. Could do several more reps if desired.
5-1
Warm-up level of exertion. Should only serve to prepare you for more intense exercise.

So basically I squat every day but its primarily 10 reps at body weight in my case, which should be easy but.... I'll post the week so far on another one and my thoughts so far.

Like you though, my deadlifts are a lot better than my squats, about a 100lbs better like yours, and I enjoy them more, but in my case I think it may be because I've always taken the deadlifts more seriously and have been doing them longer. I added deadlifts to my st routine more than 20 years ago, but it was only with your suggestion earlier this year (or was it last year already?) that I've begun to take squats seriously. I can barely do 225, and mostly work between 125 and 175 still, but I'm making good progress lately, now that I have a better feel for the technique, and am doing them more consistently. After another month or two I'm going to have a family friend, a guy my older brother's age who grew up across from our backyard, take a look at my form. He's the co-owner of Zubaz, and owned a bodybuilder/powerlifter gym for many years. I also need to work more on my power clean technique.

Did overhead squats for the second time yesterday. Man, those really hit the lower back. Great variation. My split squats really suck, it's going to take a while to get those up to speed. I didn't get around to trying front squats, maybe next time. I also want to experiment with doing really heavy quarter-squats. I've concluded that half-squats are probably bad for the knees, but quarter squats might be useful for developing power in the hip flexors and glutes.

I hear what you're saying about squats and running. I alternate between lifting and running days, and squats always interfere with my running the next day. I tried to schedule it so that they wouldn't, but it's just impossible, so now I do my squats before a tempo or sprint/hills day, or after sprints/hills or tempo day, as a kind of double or triple whammy on the legs.

Tues: sprints/hills or tempo
Wed: squats & power cleans
Thurs: tempo or sprints/hills

Thats what I don't understand about my squat strength, I have been improving on the deadlift throughout the year I am getting pretty close to 365 at this point but my squat has gone down from about 275 to probably 245 if I'm lucky? Anatomically (sp?) I am predisposed to be a better puller, but I would at least hope to see stable squat strength. Thats why I am wondering if running and squatting are too conflicting in my case?

I guess I could just experiment by dropping squats for a month and see what happens. I think I get adequate quad coverage from the trap bar, stairs and prowler so I'm not too worried about that. Its just a difficult thing to messure since life always gets into the way of everything :).

OHS are definitely great for core stability. Make sure to keep your shoulders safe though. If you lift your trap bar up high enough you could do heavy rack pulls too.
 
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that's fine,weights here have pounds on them too(in the gym I mean),probably because a lot of them are manifactured in the states.
I've been reading that timothy feriss book,the four hour body...I can mail it to you as a pdf file if you want.It has some really good weight/strength training chapters in it.And in general some really groundbreaking stuff in regard to our bodies and sports (ultrarunning,stabilizinng exercises) and nutrition in general.

I'd be interested to read it, I'll see if the library has it. I've heard goofy things about the book but I should give it a fair shake.
 
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That last sentence made me smile because most people I know hate working out their legs especially squating.Try doing them lighter for some time and really giving your body the time to adjust to the exercise.Especially front-squats are kind of awkward :) but no doubt you'll be lifting like a champ after some time :).oh and if you're working out alone,get somebody to spot you (helps me) he doesn't have to do anything,just stand there boosts my confidence and makes me lift a whole lot more.

Yeah I workout alone, I always have. Someday maybe I'll find someone to lift with. I however love working out my legs just with different excercises.

I've actually been squatting for a long time, it has always been the bane to my lifting and I regularly can bench more than I can squat. Which is kind of embarassing actually. It's ok though I am coming around to accepting that I will probably never really like it. Squats and pull-ups that is actually.
 
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Hey Abide, I've noticed for me when I add squats into my routine my running pace seems to slow a touch. I guess it really taxes the legs a lot, but I've also found it does make the legs much stronger. When I stop doing squats for a while my running pace seems to increase pretty dramatically. Maybe it's something like that for you, assuming I just made sense that is. I'm wondering if it's something I need to do cycles of, so many months on so many off.
 
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I'd be interested to read it, I'll see if the library has it. I've heard goofy things about the book but I should give it a fair shake.
you should too :) It's an eye opener in many ways.I'm not saying that it's holy or something.Just a different approach to training,nutrition and more.
I've been trying some things since august and they work,you pick from it what appeals to you and try it.
 
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I dunno, sounds pretty gimmicky and faddish. I generally don't go for those 'magic pill' type of programs. How have you benefited from it in your training? My basic premise is that there's no substitute for hard work. It's always going to take x number of miles at x pace to improve, or x number of pounds at x number of reps. The only real variables are organization and efficiency (how you combine and order your exercises and runs, their intensities and durations, etc). But four hours per month? I can't see how anyone can be that organized and efficient, otherwise, every pro athlete would be following his model.
No Lee you're getting it wrong,it's titled the 4hour workout,it doesn't say you should only workout 4 hours a month ;-) you goofball lol
If you want it I'll mail it to you just check it out or not :).I can't recite the whole book here now can I...:p
 
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