Hello, TJ, many tests (ultrasound scans, electromagnetic resonance, etc) and a full neurological study, have rejected the neuroma 
Fellowship of the Morton's Toe
- Thread starter Nyal
- Start date
oh man. i was just on soc docs site and watch a video where he talked about this. was going to link it here but forgot. oh well. now you can go search there. socdoc.com. it's either under plantar fasciitis or, aggh man. i can't remember! it's definitely on a video of his! good luck.
Some helpful folks have referred me to this group. I had been a shod runner on and off for about 20 years but then a couple of years back my right foot started getting numb when I did more than 3 miles and if I kept going the numbness actually could reach my calf. The only thing that helped was taking off my shoes. I even ruined a new pair of socks running in them to finish a half-marathon. So I switched to barefoot but wussed out on the sharp gravel and thorn-fested fields so compromised by running in watersocks. That was awesome and I made sure to follow the form I'd read about in Barefoot Kenbob's book. All was blissful and after a year or so I could easily run 25 miles a week absolutely pain and numbness free! Then (cue spooky music) I suddenly started experiencing a bit of numbness around my metatarsal phalangeal joint, between my second and third toes. A reddish bruise appeared on the top of my foot but quickly faded. I rested two days and then I was good as gold!...for a month. Then around the last day of May I went for a less than a mile run in the fields and felt fine. Came inside, ate dinner, but when I stood up I had so much pain in that toe/foot area I thought maybe I had broken something. It felt swollen but really didn't look it at all. The next day I could walk on it so I figured it probably wasn't broken after all. The same mild and short lasted bruise appeared. I rested longer. I ran and felt great but then experienced numbness the next day. I rested longer. I ran again and the numbness afterwards returned and sort of stayed. It feels like there is moleskin stuck to the bottom of my foot but there is nothing there. My big toes are so short they are downright stumpy, makes my second toe look like the Jolly Green Giant standing next to Sprout. So I have been resting because cycling has also brought the numbness. My two trial runs were totally barefoot but it didn't seem to hurt or help the situation. Thank goodness I am still able to swim laps because going weeks without running makes me feel antsy - I wanna move & sweat, especially in this gorgeous weather. So...will I be doing damage to run this way? I looked up Morton's neuroma and wasn't thrilled with the 'remedies' of wearing orthotics (wha??) or having the nerves removed, etc.
Well, I think I qualify to join this fellowship. It is actually quite difficult to feel my 'knuckles' but it seems pretty clear that my big toe knuckles take a step down, and my second toes are slightly longer than the big toes. (I also have ring fingers longer than my index fingers which I think I read may be connected.)
If we are still doing the Viking names thing I am Karen Eriksdottir as my name is Karen and my dad was Eric!
Frustratingly, I have never had a problem with this until I started bare footing a month or so back to try and rehabilitate a slight bunion on my right foot. The bunion was due to wearing shoes I now realise were too small and narrow, not to the mortons toe as far as I know.
However, have done a very very very small amount of barefoot and minimal shod running the last two weeks (never more than a minute at a time interspersed with walking, repeated 6-8 times) I am now experiencing a pain in the ball of my left foot especially when I walk on my kitchen vinyl floor barefoot. Particularly if I spin or twist on the ball of that foot. It feels different from the various stiffness discomforts that I was expecting from using my feet so differently. It is a sort of sudden pain - not awful but feeling like something that shouldn't happen.
I am feeling very frustrated by this and wondering if I am being silly to start running, but I have really enjoyed the little I have been doing.
If we are still doing the Viking names thing I am Karen Eriksdottir as my name is Karen and my dad was Eric!
Frustratingly, I have never had a problem with this until I started bare footing a month or so back to try and rehabilitate a slight bunion on my right foot. The bunion was due to wearing shoes I now realise were too small and narrow, not to the mortons toe as far as I know.
However, have done a very very very small amount of barefoot and minimal shod running the last two weeks (never more than a minute at a time interspersed with walking, repeated 6-8 times) I am now experiencing a pain in the ball of my left foot especially when I walk on my kitchen vinyl floor barefoot. Particularly if I spin or twist on the ball of that foot. It feels different from the various stiffness discomforts that I was expecting from using my feet so differently. It is a sort of sudden pain - not awful but feeling like something that shouldn't happen.
I am feeling very frustrated by this and wondering if I am being silly to start running, but I have really enjoyed the little I have been doing.
I have/had a long history with Morton's Neuroma (four of them), and I never had the numbness reach my calves or any part beyond the balls of my feet. So, I'm thinking the calf numbness wasn't related, but then I am not a doctor, so who knows for sure?
I also never had any bruising on the tops of my feet from Morton's Neuroma (or anything else). Some people who do too much too soon experience actual bruising on the tops of their feet (TOFP = top of foot pain; perhaps Ken Bob would know more about this). Could you have stepped on something and not noticed that caused the bruise to rise to the top? Could you have damaged a nerve by stepping on something, which can also cause a neuroma to develop?
The feeling of moleskin stuck to the bottom of your foot is a typical feeling of having MN. The sharp, broken toes feeling is also experienced by those of us with MN. What's strange about that for you though is it didn't take place until you stood up.
When I was diagnosed with MN, I found I could no longer run in shoes after a period of time trying, but I could continue running barefoot for 3+ years. All I did was prolong the problem, as I had to eventually take care of it with surgery. In the meantime, I tried all sorts of treatments that failed completely and made the condition worse. So, you have a choice. You can either continue running and cycling barefoot or with shoes that don't wear on the neuroma, or you can take care of this problem now and get it out of the way. If you decide on surgery, please let me know as I may be able to help you make an informed decision. Check out my signature below, and then join us at MN Talk where we talk about the various treatment options available and share our experiences. Good luck!
This would be a great questions to ask of a couple of the docs (to get more than one opinion) in our Ask the Docs forum. Could you just copy and paste this there?
If you weren't having this pain while wearing shoes, then I would think the shoes were supporting your long second toe/metatarsal. For barefoot running, you could concentrate on strengthening your second toe (and all of your toes) with some exercises (perhaps Jimmy Hart, physical therapist/running coach--PM him--could help you with that). Otherwise, check out Nyal's post about making a toe orthotic to support the second toe. Good luck, and don't give up, but do watch out for injury with this condition, MT.
I saw your post in the Ask A Doc forum...its looks like you still over did it even with the seemingly modest amount of barefoot running. Looks like once your foot pain goes away you will need to just walk barefoot for awhile and then start out the running at an even more modest amount...there is no magic amount to start out that will guarantee a smooth transition...many of us over did it too when we started and know what your going thru and had the same feelings and thoughts.
We are not special snowflakes being able to run barefoot its just a matter of getting your feet/legs fully involved in walking/running. I have mild Mortons Toe and it does cause some issues sometimes on multi-hour long runs but for general healthy running for enjoyment it is a non-issue.
Mortons Toe trouble can vary greatly from person to person but that may have no impact on your current foot trouble....maybe your foot muscles are just so out of shape basically any extra activity is a big shock to them.
If it were me I would stop using the Correct Toes till the pain is gone, maybe ice that foot some and try to use your fingers to massage the top of your foot between the little foot bones and see if you can find an extra sore spot or area as where the pain is originating from. Try massaging your calf muscles and lower legs in general...there is a chance your foot trouble could be caused by tight muscles above your foot. Try all that and hopefully the Doc's will answer up on the other forum section.
Mokaman, thanks for this! You probably gathered I have been feeling pretty panicky here. If this turns out to be just muscle stuff or even a stress fracture I will be dancing (albeit on one foot) with relief; it is the fact that it feels so much like people describe neuroma pain that scares me stupid. It isn't as if I even started this because I wanted to run. I just wanted to strengthen my feet and get them working normally and it was all going so well until I tried running. Then I read this thread and start googling and realise that this is a known issue, that maybe up to 30% of people have a foot variant that is likely to cause problems with forefoot landing??? I suppose I wonder why that isn't up there as a big red asterisk point on all the 'barefoot running is good for everyone' headlines.
Of course, I wish now I had just stuck to barefoot walking, but at present I can't even put that foot barefoot on the floor when I get out of bed without a % chance of an electric shock.
Of course, I wish now I had just stuck to barefoot walking, but at present I can't even put that foot barefoot on the floor when I get out of bed without a % chance of an electric shock.
Barefoot walking and running can expose a lot of problems with the feet that shoes kept hidden. We have to remember that. Being bare is natural; being confined is not. Let's not blame barefooting for our problems; let's blame the types of shoes and our attraction to them instead.
But I must share... In our About link on the site (set in one of the usual places you will find on any site, lower right), we have a section about Our Stance on Footwear. Please check that out, at least the last paragraph where it states that we know not everyone can go barefoot from the start, that some people have health issues, etc. Thanks!
The thing is, we are still unsure whether or not having Morton's Toe is a detriment to barefoot walking and running. I have MT, and it's never posed a problem for me walking or running barefoot. Lots of others with MT don't have a problem either, and lots of others do. I mean (and I've read that about 30% of the population has MT too) if 30% of the population has MT and it posed a real problem with persistence hunting back in the day, the way we used to hunt to survive, on foot, then how did nature not eliminate us over time? Just wondering...
That's what I'm wondering too, really, especially if it is true that this foot shape is more common in certain populations (eg Greek toe, Celtic toe). Surely that would imply that for some reason that shape was either positively selected for by being useful in some way, or was not actively likely to cause a problem with normal activities or at the very least was genetically linked with some trait that was positively useful? Could a more thumb-like toe have improved grip and stability when scrabbling up and down mountainous areas or moving around in forest? Persistence hunting may have been the plus that gave us our first leg up the evolutionary tree but it is a long time since we moved into areas where that would not be the main method.
I'm a morty too - right foot is quite pronounced, and the left foot has the two toes about level. I'm not running into any problems with the toes yet, but I do have the signature callouses near the base of the second toe, and they are starting to get on my nerves. They can be a little 'stingy' when I walk on them after a long run.
Do people tend to buff away at them with pumice stones, or is it best to leave them alone and let things take their natural course? I'm wondering if they will toughen up and stop hurting after a period of adjustment?
Do people tend to buff away at them with pumice stones, or is it best to leave them alone and let things take their natural course? I'm wondering if they will toughen up and stop hurting after a period of adjustment?
Hi. My name is Mike and I have Morton's Toe.
I had been racking up some good mileage in VFF and barefoot lately. A couple weeks ago, my second toe started to get numb and tingly, started to hurt and began drifting toward the big toe. I thought this was all due to an injury to that toe 15 or so years ago. I laid off running for a bit and when it didn't improve, saw a podiatrist yesterday. He diagnosed capsulitis of the second toe. He gave that joint an injection, showed me how to "tape" the toe (for the next six weeks!) and expressed his desire to never see me again (regarding that toe). Subsequent internet research--and we all know that the internet is never wrong--showed that having the second toe longer than the big toe and Morton's Toe are precursors to the condition. Another is pushing off the ball of the foot too much (my very wise wife suggested that I may doing this in an attempt to avoid heel striking). After reading (many of) these posts and performing the very technical test (crossing legs, etc.) I discovered I have Morton's Toe. More to think about when running--oh joy.
I had been racking up some good mileage in VFF and barefoot lately. A couple weeks ago, my second toe started to get numb and tingly, started to hurt and began drifting toward the big toe. I thought this was all due to an injury to that toe 15 or so years ago. I laid off running for a bit and when it didn't improve, saw a podiatrist yesterday. He diagnosed capsulitis of the second toe. He gave that joint an injection, showed me how to "tape" the toe (for the next six weeks!) and expressed his desire to never see me again (regarding that toe). Subsequent internet research--and we all know that the internet is never wrong--showed that having the second toe longer than the big toe and Morton's Toe are precursors to the condition. Another is pushing off the ball of the foot too much (my very wise wife suggested that I may doing this in an attempt to avoid heel striking). After reading (many of) these posts and performing the very technical test (crossing legs, etc.) I discovered I have Morton's Toe. More to think about when running--oh joy.
That's a tricky one, Larry. If the callus is hard and bothering you, then you should probably sand it down. Mine always added extra protection to the ends of my toes though and never bothered me, so I never bothered them. Think of it this way: The callus is trying to tell you something. Your toes are too long and they are scraping the ground as you run. Lift them more.
Refoman, have you ever run barefoot, skin-on-ground? If not, when you heal from this injury, try running barefoot to see if the problem could be related to the VFFs, or your running in them I should say.
Refoman, have you ever run barefoot, skin-on-ground? If not, when you heal from this injury, try running barefoot to see if the problem could be related to the VFFs, or your running in them I should say.
I haven't been by in a while, but yeah, I belong in this club. I have had to start and stop multiple times because of the darned "toe issues". My problem is: out in this part of Oklahoma, you can't run on the grass barefoot (huaraches are good for that here). Not unless you want to be impaled by evil little balls of pain we politely call "sand burrs". They gang up on you all at once. They seek your big shaggy dogs out so they can attach themselves and take up unwanted space on the floor (the "sand burrs", not the dogs) and get you that way if they can't get you outdoors. They latch on to corgi bellies to do more of the same. And good luck finding dirt trails out here. Oklahomans seem to want to pave them all. I have yet to find a solution for this. Was the Morton's toe orthotic design put elsewhere on this site?
Thanks,
Space Girl
Thanks,
Space Girl
That sounds brutal.
I don't think it's elsewhere on the site. Did you check the first posts, or the posts by Nyal? He's the one who came up with it.
I don't think it's elsewhere on the site. Did you check the first posts, or the posts by Nyal? He's the one who came up with it.
I looked through the first few pages but I likely missed it. I'll go poke around some more. Thanks again.
Space Girl
Space Girl
I think I remember hounding him for some pictures, but he never shared any. He did put out a description of how he made them though.
If you're having issues with morton's toe I highly recomend this insoles they aren't orthotics is just an insole that corrects the toes aligment. Sorry I haven't read the whole thing do not sure what's your issue with your toes/feet.
sorry forgot to link it
http://www.mortonsfoot.com/posturecontrolinsoles.html
